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It's a start, but i believe it's not nearly enough. Building for a decade is what anyone could do mostly without efforts. Products from the past decades used to

It's a start, but i believe it's not nearly enough. Building for a decade is what anyone could do mostly without efforts. Products from the past decades used to last decades (plural), and that's where we should be back at. If you've ever acquired furniture/tools/machines from the past century (or before that), you probably know what i'm talking about.

alexf95 6y ago
Well someone has to start somewhere! As someone who gets very attached to things he buys I also hope we go back to the "good old days".
- southerntofu 6y ago
  > Well someone has to start somewhere! I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand i agree a marathon has many small steps to walk. On the other hand, governments/companies have a long history of not caring about actual issues and stopping after the first step gave them good conscience that they were doing something about the problem...
lotsofpulp 6y ago
How do you know the furniture/tools/machines from the past you are using aren’t subject to survivorship bias? And that today’s high end items won’t similarly be usable in the future?
- esperent 6y ago
  It's a fair point and probably partially true. But I'm pretty certain the only way an iPhone will survive for a century is if someone removes the battery and places it into a locked vault. With regular, or even just occasional use, it's unlikely to last past a decade.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    What is the significance of an iPhone not surviving for a century?
  - southerntofu 6y ago
    So batteries are a problem because they wear easily. This could be addressed in the future with eg. supercapacitors and other durable batteries technology, but can be mitigated in the meantime by making batteries replaceable. For the other components, i don't see any reason they couldn't last over a decade. Even if a single component fails (eg. touchscreen) it should be easily replaceable, and your device could be good to go for another ten years. But to be fair, if all products lasted 10 years, that would be considerably better than the present situation (though not nearly enough).
- southerntofu 6y ago
  That's a very good question, thanks. I have anecdata in the forms of testimonies from elders about durability of hardware (in general), and from my own experience when i was younger. For example, i remember buying socks/pants/shoes that would last me years and years ; i don't remember when exactly was the last time i bought one of those and it lasted me more than a year, but that was long ago. Then, there's actual evidence pointing to the industry sabotaging their products on purpose (planned obsolescence). This ranges from historical insider documents to public testimonies. The most obvious user-facing examples are manuals, availability of spare parts, and warranty times. It was not uncommon for products to have lifetime (or 20y) warranty, and to come with a manual. There were an abundance of clothing/electronics shops in every city where you could get spare parts for cheap, and these shops have mostly closed down due to bad economic incentives.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Is it possible buyers don’t value the ability to use a machine for 20 years at the cost it takes to make a machine that can be warrantied for 20 years? There are multiple manufacturers of washers, surely they would have done the market research to know what will sell. I recently purchased a washer and dryer from Costco for $1,600 with a 4 year warranty. There were no options for a longer warranty at Costco, but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k. I might still choose the 4 year warranty option and gamble on it lasting 10 years and then getting new ones when it breaks. The longest warranty on a consumer washer, Speed Queen, is 5 years I think. Their commercial options are similar (for hotels), I didn’t see any 5+ year options last I checked. And their commercial versions are pretty repairable. I’m guessing the economics just don’t line up where the washers and dryers are so cheap with a few years of warranty that it can’t offset labor costs and other costs of longer warranties. No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer, except that consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at. As for tackling pollution due to excess waste, I think the more efficient, easier, better way to tackle that is to increase taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution. That will cause increases in prices of goods, which will force consumers to value longevity and repairability, which will then cause manufacturers to also value those aspects.

alexf95 6y ago

Well someone has to start somewhere! As someone who gets very attached to things he buys I also hope we go back to the "good old days".

southerntofu 6y ago
> Well someone has to start somewhere! I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand i agree a marathon has many small steps to walk. On the other hand, governments/companies have a long history of not caring about actual issues and stopping after the first step gave them good conscience that they were doing something about the problem...

lotsofpulp 6y ago

How do you know the furniture/tools/machines from the past you are using aren’t subject to survivorship bias? And that today’s high end items won’t similarly be usable in the future?

esperent 6y ago
It's a fair point and probably partially true. But I'm pretty certain the only way an iPhone will survive for a century is if someone removes the battery and places it into a locked vault. With regular, or even just occasional use, it's unlikely to last past a decade.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  What is the significance of an iPhone not surviving for a century?
- southerntofu 6y ago
  So batteries are a problem because they wear easily. This could be addressed in the future with eg. supercapacitors and other durable batteries technology, but can be mitigated in the meantime by making batteries replaceable. For the other components, i don't see any reason they couldn't last over a decade. Even if a single component fails (eg. touchscreen) it should be easily replaceable, and your device could be good to go for another ten years. But to be fair, if all products lasted 10 years, that would be considerably better than the present situation (though not nearly enough).
southerntofu 6y ago
That's a very good question, thanks. I have anecdata in the forms of testimonies from elders about durability of hardware (in general), and from my own experience when i was younger. For example, i remember buying socks/pants/shoes that would last me years and years ; i don't remember when exactly was the last time i bought one of those and it lasted me more than a year, but that was long ago. Then, there's actual evidence pointing to the industry sabotaging their products on purpose (planned obsolescence). This ranges from historical insider documents to public testimonies. The most obvious user-facing examples are manuals, availability of spare parts, and warranty times. It was not uncommon for products to have lifetime (or 20y) warranty, and to come with a manual. There were an abundance of clothing/electronics shops in every city where you could get spare parts for cheap, and these shops have mostly closed down due to bad economic incentives.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Is it possible buyers don’t value the ability to use a machine for 20 years at the cost it takes to make a machine that can be warrantied for 20 years? There are multiple manufacturers of washers, surely they would have done the market research to know what will sell. I recently purchased a washer and dryer from Costco for $1,600 with a 4 year warranty. There were no options for a longer warranty at Costco, but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k. I might still choose the 4 year warranty option and gamble on it lasting 10 years and then getting new ones when it breaks. The longest warranty on a consumer washer, Speed Queen, is 5 years I think. Their commercial options are similar (for hotels), I didn’t see any 5+ year options last I checked. And their commercial versions are pretty repairable. I’m guessing the economics just don’t line up where the washers and dryers are so cheap with a few years of warranty that it can’t offset labor costs and other costs of longer warranties. No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer, except that consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at. As for tackling pollution due to excess waste, I think the more efficient, easier, better way to tackle that is to increase taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution. That will cause increases in prices of goods, which will force consumers to value longevity and repairability, which will then cause manufacturers to also value those aspects.