8 ms·

It's not like you can't get pc games packed with micro transactions, loot boxes, asset flips, etc. You probably just know not to buy them, you could do the same

It's not like you can't get pc games packed with micro transactions, loot boxes, asset flips, etc. You probably just know not to buy them, you could do the same research for mobile, there are plenty of mobile games that don't follow the model. I would say to a non computer literate, the state of the pc software industry in general is just as spammy, perhaps even worse as it's much more mature, it is harder to get the worst through google play and the app store.

trabant00 6y ago
> It's not like you can't get pc games packed with micro transactions, loot boxes, asset flips, etc. The difference is that in the PC games you can mostly ignore these and you still have a game you play, where skill and work is challenged and rewarded. The phone "games" that company develops (again, top in popularity) had no gameplay to speak of. You click a button, something spins, over a large number of spins you reliably lose ingame currency so you need to buy more. You get a lot of smoke and mirrors on top of this - an artistic theme, social media integrations, ranks, titles, events, etc, but again the big difference is that there is no gameplay.
- adnzzzzZ 6y ago
  Yet in real life games like Genshin Impact implement most of the techniques you find morally wrong yet the game has actual gameplay and most people playing it have no problem with it. Real life is more complex than the binary way of thinking you propose, and games often implement these techniques with valid reasons behind it other than simply making money or exploiting people. The problem is people acting poorly, and not the techniques in and of themselves.
  - Bancakes 6y ago
    Interesting. Can you name some valid, non-monetary reasons to have lootboxes?
    - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
      In the same way that randomness in a roguelite leads to you feeling really good when you find an item that is cool and that you didn't expect to get, you have that same mechanic taking place when you either save enough in-game currency or use real money to buy a new lootbox and get a new item/character. It's a different mode of accessing gameplay that is random, and just like in a game that abuses this mechanic to keep people playing for hundreds of hours (roguelites), these mobile games also do that, except with the possibility of paying real life money.
      - Bancakes 6y ago
        What you described is a planned dopamine release you have to pay for. I was under the impression the gameplay itself is there to make you have fun - if you have lootboxes, you're compensating for gameplay, or more likely, are doing it for monetary reasons.
        adnzzzzZ 6y ago
        Well, anything that involves a monetary exchange can be described as "for monetary reasons". I explained to you that a non-monetary reason is similar to the reasoning behind similar mechanics in roguelites, which generally do not ask the player for payment. I can even make the same argument you made instead about roguelites: "What you described is planned dopamine release you have to wait for. I was under the impression the gameplay itself is there to make you have fun - if you have RNG, you're compensating for gameplay, or more likely, are doing it for nefarious reasons such as extending the amount of time people play your game for." Yet roguelites are not seen as morally wrong at all. Why? They're both using the same mechanic, except one lets you pay to skip the RNG-gating.
        Bancakes 6y ago
        No roguelike ever had a locked chest that wasn't meant to be open. Lootboxes aren't meant to be open unless you pay.
  - esperent 6y ago
    Genshin Impact is notorious for preying on it's users and monetizing everything they possibly can. The only difference from other similarly monetized games is that they included an actual fun game - although they stole plenty of assets and animations apparently, e.g. from Niers Automata (ironic because that game is the epitome of a game that was clearly made with love and has no microtransactions).
  - darren_ 6y ago
    Genshin Impact is an example of a game where the gameplay is intrinsically designed to facilitate the monetization though - it's taking what would be perfectly alright gameplay, and making it _really shitty_, so they can monetize. A Genshin Impact that cost full price but had no 'original resin' garbage, no running the same boss a dozen times (but only 4 times a day unless you pay!) to 'ascend' a character, that didn't gate most of the actually effective characters behind gacha pulls, might actually be a decent game. Probably wouldn't have made as much money though.
    - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
      Clearly most people aren't bothered by it as it's an extremely popular game that has remained popular months after release. If it was just a quick low quality cash grab people would have moved on, but they haven't. So you have to come to terms with the fact that reality is rejecting your particular perspective on the issue.
      - darren_ 6y ago
        How do you know people haven't moved on? Have you got Genshin Impact analytics that the rest of us don't? It's free and getting lots of installs as you'd expect - how do you know if people are sticking with it? It's a perfectly fine game for the first quite-a-few-hours and then suddenly turns into an appalling grindfest (and yes, the 'quality' is clearly front-loaded, the game drops off a cliff once you get to Liyue)
        adnzzzzZ 6y ago
        Does it seem like a game that's consistently getting millions of views on videos about each update is experiencing some kind of serious decline in popularity? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH9vMZBwAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH9vMZBwAk
      - mercurysmessage 6y ago
        That isn't a clear cut answer to the game being played, they can play it and not be happy with some of the games practices, we really don't know unless a study is done. Anecdotally All of my friends who play games hate microtransactions and loot boxes. Some don't care if it's only cosmetic though.
- secretsatan 6y ago
  Again, you took the time to find the games that allow you to do this and then just say every free mobile game employs the model you don't like
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > The phone "games" that company develops (again, top in popularity) had no gameplay to speak of. You click a button, something spins, over a large number of spins you reliably lose ingame currency so you need to buy more. This is a point-for-point description of one of the most popular "game" types in Las Vegas.
  - selfhoster11 6y ago
    At this point, I consider the majority of the mobile gaming space to be indistinguishable from a casino. - Pretty flashing lights and bings? Check - Keep feeding it money to be entertained at a constant rate? Check (or else it will taper off to nothing/degrade down to "not fun") I would make a more complete comment, but I can't be bothered to spend the time at the moment. This comment would get so little points this deep in the thread tree. Wait, that almost sounds familiar...
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> you could do the same research for mobile, there are plenty of mobile games that don't follow the model It's a nontrivial amount of work. Most people predictably aren't going to do it (otherwise the market would eliminate abusive practices on its own). Hell, most HNers ain't gonna do it. Myself, I wasn't doing it, despite complaining about games a lot. Fortunately, HN's StavrosK did the research, and created this: https://nobsgames.stavros.io/ https://nobsgames.stavros.io/. I'm forever grateful to him for that.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  <3 EDIT: Hey, do you want to become a curator? It's very low-volume and would help keep the site more up to date.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Thanks for the offer! I'm trying to learn to stop agreeing to things on impulse, so I'll think about it and get back to you no later than Monday. If you can, please also tell me what exactly does curating this list entail, either here or privately.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      There's a "review queue" of games where you see user feedback and you decide whether to allow the game on the list or deny it, along with a reason why. It's an allow/deny system, basically, except sometimes you have to look at the games to try and tell if they should make the list or not.
- blub 6y ago
  Or you could use Apple arcade and not worry about it I guess?
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Even if I was on iOS, I've learned better than to trust commercial entities with curating mobile games and apps.

trabant00 6y ago

> It's not like you can't get pc games packed with micro transactions, loot boxes, asset flips, etc. The difference is that in the PC games you can mostly ignore these and you still have a game you play, where skill and work is challenged and rewarded. The phone "games" that company develops (again, top in popularity) had no gameplay to speak of. You click a button, something spins, over a large number of spins you reliably lose ingame currency so you need to buy more. You get a lot of smoke and mirrors on top of this - an artistic theme, social media integrations, ranks, titles, events, etc, but again the big difference is that there is no gameplay.

adnzzzzZ 6y ago
Yet in real life games like Genshin Impact implement most of the techniques you find morally wrong yet the game has actual gameplay and most people playing it have no problem with it. Real life is more complex than the binary way of thinking you propose, and games often implement these techniques with valid reasons behind it other than simply making money or exploiting people. The problem is people acting poorly, and not the techniques in and of themselves.
- Bancakes 6y ago
  Interesting. Can you name some valid, non-monetary reasons to have lootboxes?
  - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
    In the same way that randomness in a roguelite leads to you feeling really good when you find an item that is cool and that you didn't expect to get, you have that same mechanic taking place when you either save enough in-game currency or use real money to buy a new lootbox and get a new item/character. It's a different mode of accessing gameplay that is random, and just like in a game that abuses this mechanic to keep people playing for hundreds of hours (roguelites), these mobile games also do that, except with the possibility of paying real life money.
    - Bancakes 6y ago
      What you described is a planned dopamine release you have to pay for. I was under the impression the gameplay itself is there to make you have fun - if you have lootboxes, you're compensating for gameplay, or more likely, are doing it for monetary reasons.
      - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
        Well, anything that involves a monetary exchange can be described as "for monetary reasons". I explained to you that a non-monetary reason is similar to the reasoning behind similar mechanics in roguelites, which generally do not ask the player for payment. I can even make the same argument you made instead about roguelites: "What you described is planned dopamine release you have to wait for. I was under the impression the gameplay itself is there to make you have fun - if you have RNG, you're compensating for gameplay, or more likely, are doing it for nefarious reasons such as extending the amount of time people play your game for." Yet roguelites are not seen as morally wrong at all. Why? They're both using the same mechanic, except one lets you pay to skip the RNG-gating.
        Bancakes 6y ago
        No roguelike ever had a locked chest that wasn't meant to be open. Lootboxes aren't meant to be open unless you pay.
- esperent 6y ago
  Genshin Impact is notorious for preying on it's users and monetizing everything they possibly can. The only difference from other similarly monetized games is that they included an actual fun game - although they stole plenty of assets and animations apparently, e.g. from Niers Automata (ironic because that game is the epitome of a game that was clearly made with love and has no microtransactions).
- darren_ 6y ago
  Genshin Impact is an example of a game where the gameplay is intrinsically designed to facilitate the monetization though - it's taking what would be perfectly alright gameplay, and making it _really shitty_, so they can monetize. A Genshin Impact that cost full price but had no 'original resin' garbage, no running the same boss a dozen times (but only 4 times a day unless you pay!) to 'ascend' a character, that didn't gate most of the actually effective characters behind gacha pulls, might actually be a decent game. Probably wouldn't have made as much money though.
  - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
    Clearly most people aren't bothered by it as it's an extremely popular game that has remained popular months after release. If it was just a quick low quality cash grab people would have moved on, but they haven't. So you have to come to terms with the fact that reality is rejecting your particular perspective on the issue.
    - darren_ 6y ago
      How do you know people haven't moved on? Have you got Genshin Impact analytics that the rest of us don't? It's free and getting lots of installs as you'd expect - how do you know if people are sticking with it? It's a perfectly fine game for the first quite-a-few-hours and then suddenly turns into an appalling grindfest (and yes, the 'quality' is clearly front-loaded, the game drops off a cliff once you get to Liyue)
      - adnzzzzZ 6y ago
        Does it seem like a game that's consistently getting millions of views on videos about each update is experiencing some kind of serious decline in popularity? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH9vMZBwAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH9vMZBwAk
    - mercurysmessage 6y ago
      That isn't a clear cut answer to the game being played, they can play it and not be happy with some of the games practices, we really don't know unless a study is done. Anecdotally All of my friends who play games hate microtransactions and loot boxes. Some don't care if it's only cosmetic though.
secretsatan 6y ago
Again, you took the time to find the games that allow you to do this and then just say every free mobile game employs the model you don't like
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> The phone "games" that company develops (again, top in popularity) had no gameplay to speak of. You click a button, something spins, over a large number of spins you reliably lose ingame currency so you need to buy more. This is a point-for-point description of one of the most popular "game" types in Las Vegas.
- selfhoster11 6y ago
  At this point, I consider the majority of the mobile gaming space to be indistinguishable from a casino. - Pretty flashing lights and bings? Check - Keep feeding it money to be entertained at a constant rate? Check (or else it will taper off to nothing/degrade down to "not fun") I would make a more complete comment, but I can't be bothered to spend the time at the moment. This comment would get so little points this deep in the thread tree. Wait, that almost sounds familiar...

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> you could do the same research for mobile, there are plenty of mobile games that don't follow the model It's a nontrivial amount of work. Most people predictably aren't going to do it (otherwise the market would eliminate abusive practices on its own). Hell, most HNers ain't gonna do it. Myself, I wasn't doing it, despite complaining about games a lot. Fortunately, HN's StavrosK did the research, and created this: https://nobsgames.stavros.io/ https://nobsgames.stavros.io/. I'm forever grateful to him for that.

StavrosK 6y ago
<3 EDIT: Hey, do you want to become a curator? It's very low-volume and would help keep the site more up to date.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Thanks for the offer! I'm trying to learn to stop agreeing to things on impulse, so I'll think about it and get back to you no later than Monday. If you can, please also tell me what exactly does curating this list entail, either here or privately.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    There's a "review queue" of games where you see user feedback and you decide whether to allow the game on the list or deny it, along with a reason why. It's an allow/deny system, basically, except sometimes you have to look at the games to try and tell if they should make the list or not.
blub 6y ago
Or you could use Apple arcade and not worry about it I guess?
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Even if I was on iOS, I've learned better than to trust commercial entities with curating mobile games and apps.