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India’s new intermediary liability and digital media laws will harm the internet

172 points by searchableguy 6y ago

iamAtom 6y ago
Ah shit, here we go again.
numToStr 6y ago
Stupid people making laws for the things that they don't fully understands.
- throwaway198812 6y ago
  Racist much? Not sure if you are Indian, but calling other people of different race stupid for protecting it’s own country makes you look crap, and you very well might be.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - s3tz 6y ago
    Don't think anybody was thinking about race here. More like taking aim at the political do gooder class.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - creata 6y ago
    Be a bit more generous in your interpretation of others' comments. Looking at the commenter's post history, it's pretty clear that they're talking about the Indian government.
- drieddust 6y ago
  Your argument will hold true if social media companies act as a platform and don't censor or intervene. In reality they take sides and push their agenda so this is bound to happen. Companies coming together to de-platform Trump and Twitter CEO admitting that twitter employees are left leaning are very good examples of why this would happen.
  - revendell_elf 6y ago
    But those are the "experts" from the West. They believe that censoring Trump was correct but a country who wants to save it's sovereignty is incorrect and should not happen. It goes against their narrative.
    - drieddust 6y ago
      Champions of free expression wants to grant more power to Jack and his cohort than to the democratically elected Government because Governments are corrupt but Jack is not. How Ironic?
      - creata 6y ago
        Yes, I want Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter, to have more control over Twitter than the government. > the democratically elected Government The democratically elected government was elected for a million different reasons, but their proficiency at managing social media networks was not one of them. And, you know, controlling every single social network is just a bit more dangerous than controlling one.
      - yuriko_boyko 6y ago
        Their manifesto did not say that they'll regulate social media and try to limit internet freedoms. They were not elected for that. Can any future election be truly democratic if those in power get to issue content takedowns?
        drieddust 6y ago
- garrytan 6y ago
  Think twice before calling law makers stupid , that too the eminent layers of the country with 1.5 Billion people and worlds biggest democracy. With what kind of preconceived opinion you think that "things that they don't fully understands." This is racism at its peak. And can you even understand the article attached which is in hindi? If you would have , you could have made a reasonable argument here rather than making such a stupid argument. what right do you have to name people you don’t even know ? You don't have any and yet you go on and abuse people with your racist mentality.
  - abdcefgh 6y ago
    Sir, how much do they pay trolls these days? I want a job too.
  - rishav_sharan 6y ago
    As someone who understands Hindi, yeah I have to concur it's a authoritarian and stupid law. It will only be selectively enforced and seeing the track record of this regime, it will be used to suppress dissent.
    - mayuresh 6y ago
      As someone who understands English as well, yeah, I have to concur that social media giants like Twitter have gotten more powerful than necessary. The law is just right, and at the right time, nothing stupid about it.
      - tejasgarde 6y ago
        Agree Social media platforms gotten more powerful than necessary. Also Saying new laws are suppressing freedom of speech is not enough , for sake of valid argument one must point out which clause/sub clause of the said law mentions this suppression.
        mayuresh 6y ago
        I am not at all of the opinion that the new laws suppress freedom of speech. I was countering the previous comment using sarcasm as a means to convey the futility of their argument.
sadfev 6y ago
Well the power is stripped away from unregulated social media giants, so the feeble dependents (Mozilla) are raging on that how it will “harm” internet and “curtail” freedom. Play stupid games and win stupid prices. No govt will surrender sovereignty and media control. Just because US is dumb enough to completely surrender itself to Social media megatech companies that doesn’t mean everyone else wants to.
- throwaway198812 6y ago
  You are going to be downvoted by so called experts from the West who think they know how the world works, and their way is the only right way.
  - revendell_elf 6y ago
    He has been downvoted already. This is pretty much expected from "Experts from the West". And here I thought HN was unbiased.
    - throwaway198812 6y ago
      The one thing people in the West know is how to be parochial about the world, and they don’t even know how the Midwest works in their own country. After “democracy” and “human rights”, “internet freedom” and “climate change” are going to be the new fronts, and Jack Dorsey is growing his beard to look like Ayatollah of Market St.
- uniclaude 6y ago
  The view that governments are necessarily trying to control information unless they’re dumb is not universally shared. This has little to do with surrendering sovereignty.
  - revendell_elf 6y ago
    But the view that companies trying to censor and control information is universally acceptable, right? I think most the universe lies in the West.
throwaway198812 6y ago
Mozilla CEO : we need more than deplatforming for Trump supporters. Also Mozilla : hey India, don’t come in between our empire building process. If India’s laws are hurting Mozilla and the big tech, they are going to be right.
- throwaway198812 6y ago
  https://www.verdict.co.uk/mozilla-ceo-deplatforming/ https://www.verdict.co.uk/mozilla-ceo-deplatforming/ The moment the tech companies started using the earned influence for political gains, it was game over, Internet was going to be split. Don’t take other countries courtesy for granted, if they are allowing you to operate doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want to do.
nathias 6y ago
People who see some good in this are naive, its no a blow to the social media giants, the big players can always afford to be an exception to regulation ....
- pmontra 6y ago
  Of course. Google for this: over regulation benefits the incumbent. I quote one of the results > More generally, however, a higher overall level of regulation in a country can benefit larger incumbent firms that have the resources to shoulder compliance costs while their smaller competitors falter in the face of an increasing regulatory burden.
- WeekSpeller 6y ago
  They aren't naïve at all, you are naïve. India's decline in democracy index is not an accident.
hn-private-364 6y ago
This law is clearly made by people who know what they're demanding: instead of China's closed wall garden of internet, the ruling BJP party realizes they can have their cake and eat it as well. They want to allow multi-national corporations to exist in the country because removing them in the near future is going to cause a dent in their own operational policy. But rather, they clearly want to control these companies so they peddle only their own approved messaging. The approved messaging however is not to toe to any standards of tolerance or deceny. The ruling party has an active social media campaign with tens of thousands of people actively spreading hate and lies through WhatsApp and Facebook. https://www.firstpost.com/india/massive-tweet-volumes-complex-hierarchies-coordinated-attacks-hacker-reveals-how-bjp-congress-it-cells-wage-war-on-social-media-7965121.html https://www.firstpost.com/india/massive-tweet-volumes-comple... They prosecute citizens who stand up against them under sedition charges, which are non-bailable offences. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56068522 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56068522 They most recently started another WhatsApp Hate Factory group. https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/02/15/we-infiltrated-the-telegram-groups-of-the-bjp-leaders-online-network-to-see-what-they-do https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/02/15/we-infiltrated-the-te... This government is not shy about their right-wing communal leaning. They want to create a country that is hospitable to only one majority religion, and within that they do not allow free expression that goes against their wishes. This is just another step in the direction, and the times are dark indeed.
- frongpik 6y ago
  There's clearly a trend: the more people live in a country, the more paranoidal and authoritarian its rulers. They are afraid of their people and want more control. That's understandable.
  - techdragon 6y ago
    This prompts the next question... what can those of us who don’t want this slide towards authoritarianism to continue, do about it? Regardless of political/social viewpoints, I don’t think it matters if you consider your political views left, right, up, down, a, b or start... for the most part these views are compatible with free expression and “lowercase l” liberal democracy. Notwithstanding notable exceptions such as capital F Fascism or capital N Nazism, where being authoritarian is literally part of the political philosophy. So how do we resist this trend? I’m not talking about rallies and counter-protesting, that won’t help shit when it’s happening in other countries. How do we make liberty and democracy better so that people want it enough to say no to the continuing pressure towards alternatives... ?
fatninja 6y ago
Key points from the article 1. Traceability of Encrypted Content 2. Harsh Content Take Down and Data Sharing Timelines 3. User Directed Take Downs of Non-Consensual Sexually Explicit Content and Morphed/Impersonated Content 4. Social Media User Verification 5. Automated Filtering 6. Digital Media Regulation Except point 3. Read each sentence with "Do not do" and see if it makes sense for internet.
- dman 6y ago
  Any pointers to the wording of the law itself? I cant appear to find it on a govt website yet.
  - markha 6y ago
    How about https://www.meity.gov.in/writereaddata/files/Intermediary_Guidelines_and_Digital_Media_Ethics_Code_Rules-2021.pdf https://www.meity.gov.in/writereaddata/files/Intermediary_Gu... Keep scrolling for the English translation Ref: https://www.meity.gov.in/content/gazettes https://www.meity.gov.in/content/gazettes
    - dman 6y ago
      Thank you!!
lurker_1010 6y ago
Hey there. I have been a lurker on HN. I made this account just to comment on this thread. I am an Indian and live in India and I'm glad that international media is paying attention to what is going on here. I used tor to create this account because I'm afraid of this govt. This govt is a classic fascist one. On the same lines of NSDP of Germany. Those who are dissing Mozilla for shining the light on what is obviously an attempt to censor critical voices on internet, should also point out that India has enacted laws which allow Police to incarcerate people without trial, without bail for years. So many of our intellectuals are in jail and they have not faced a single day of trial. There is so much to talk about what is going on in India. Let me just lay out a few points: 1. We have enacted a set of laws which will lead to loss of citizenship for Muslims. 2. We have enacted laws prohibiting marriage between interfaith couples (Nuremberg laws anyone). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Jihad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Jihad 3. Thugs of ruling party are roaming the streets catching couples belonging to different faiths, especially if the boy is muslim and girl is hindu. A young muslim boy is still in jail because he attended the birthday party of a hindu girl. 4. A hindu girls pregnancy from her muslim husband was forcibly aborted. Shame on Indian diaspora for supporting all of this. You guys should know that the endgame is wholesale genocide of muslims here
bg117 6y ago
Privacy is not such a big thing. Most of the Asian societies have been very open in the past and privacy only hurts it. But, with the power to monitor people in the hands of government or social media companies, it is better to have at-least some privacy. Encryption for financial transactions is a must. Reputations can be built and tarnished easily very rapidly. It is natural that there should be adequate protections in law. Social media should not be used to incite mobs or fan riots. More such actions are required to prevent unnecessary conflicts. Tracking user actions only help in identifying when trouble arises.
lain98 6y ago
Mozilla has lost all standing as a defender of free speech. They have cheered on when the free speech rights of american citizens was being curbed. And they track their users while also taking money from google. I am sorry that the fancy minimal cartoony graphics and plastering black and brown faces on your homepage does not cut it anymore. >India’s new intermediary liability and digital media regulations will harm the open internet No, it will harm mozilla's interests, and its biggest customers(google at al). >Under the new rules, law enforcement agencies can demand that companies trace the ‘first originator’ of any message. How is this different from when a US court asks a company to aid in an investigation. >Short timelines of 36 hours for content take downs and 72 hours for the sharing of user data for all intermediaries pose significant implementation and freedom of expression challenges So if it were to become 100 hours or 200 hours it would be okay ??? If you are not accepting liability for user content, the government has a right to say what is and is not acceptable content. If anything, 36 hours is too much time. >User Directed Take Downs of Non-Consensual Sexually Explicit Content and Morphed/Impersonated Content Taking down revenge porn is bad ?? >Social Media User Verification This is indefensible and I agree. >Automated Filtering: While improved from its earlier iteration in the 2018 draft, the provisions to “endeavor” to carry out automated filtering for child sexual abuse materials (CSAM), non-consensual sexual acts and previously removed content apply to all significant social media intermediaries (including end to end encrypted messaging applications). This is a good move, albeit not technically possible in case of e2e encryption. Overall, the intention seems good albeit a few regulations that are not possible. I am not sure why Mozilla is hand wringing over this, or what locus standi they have on the issue. They have already lost any goodwill they used to have.
garrytan 6y ago
The Article states that "Ripple effects of these provisions will have a devastating impact on freedom of expression, privacy and security" This is not true at all. Rather In his Speech Union minister Ravi Shankar Prasad (Minister of Communications) Stated clearly states that. "We all respect the right of the people to criticise us but will take action if social media is used for violence and fake news and will take actions if anyone misses social media to impact polls" He also added "I want to tell social media giants , work here but follow our laws" Every country has right to protect itself, wether the threat is from Terror or Fake news . Indian Government is doing exactly the same as this so called Freedom of Speech can not be used to hide fake news and Monarchy of tech Giants (it is crystal clear by the double standards of some social media platform as how they handled the accounts of those involved in Capitol hills riots and Violent Protest at Delhi Red Fort On Republic Day of India.) These are not the rules to curb freedom of speech , but it is a platform to burst fake news, protect women from abusive messages and tweetes. No Social media message will be blocked. Rather these rules will protect citizens from dark side of social media. As article claims , there wont be any devastating impact on freedom of expression privacy and security. The article is in english, but the attached rules are in Hindi. I would urge the author to attach english version of it so that people can understand it well rather than relying on this article alone.
- qart 6y ago
  The attached rules are in Hindi and English. Scroll to page 19.
justforfunhere 6y ago
Several new accounts commenting on this thread, created just around the time when this story was submitted. They hide behind the tech that these laws are threatening to take down. It's going to hurt everyone, regardless of their political loyalties or faith.
devwastaken 6y ago
There is an odd trend in pieces submitted about india that spawns new accounts in support of whatever it is the india government is doing. I'm in the west so probably better to updoot someone from india that has better insight. This is just my observation. If what mozilla is saying is true this is a very obvious power grab that only applies to law abiding people. Internet protocols don't care about laws, you can try to enforce origin IP's and ban E2E encryption but bad actors can use these regardless of the law. It's all simply math and basic network packets. Any software cryptographer or experienced programmer can tell you that. Meaning the intentions of this legislation cannot be honest, and therefore it's not for good. As for social media regulation - by creating special regulations you lock in the current market. For example the reason why you can't compete with youtube in western markets is because youtube has to have very advanced processing heavy algorithms for content detection because copyright infringement, illigal material, etc. But japan has all their own ecosystem of social media and video. The government also isn't somehow the good guys when trying to regulate big social media. If you give them the power to do that then they can also be the ones to shut down alternative social media with fines, police, and guns.
- blackoil 6y ago
  Welcome to the New India, where it is difficult to differentiate between trolls, fanatics and media and to some extent general public.
- naruvimama 6y ago
  Have you also not noticed that the vast majority are critical of the government. The problem with crying wolf is that, when the wolf does really emerge people would ignore your cries.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    > The problem with crying wolf is that, India is one of the most corrupt countries in the world so people complaining is not exactly crying wolf.
- 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
azifali 6y ago
Yet another regressive move from a repressive party trying to have the cake and eat it too, with free market policies where it makes sense and a China style control with a single party where convenient. These laws are likely to be enforced against Big Tech but the real losers are going to be users.
- mayuresh 6y ago
  I don't see how in any way nationalist and law abiding citizens of India are going to lose anything.
- wornohaulus 6y ago
  your religion is a single party repressive move .. go and question your religion first .. its so easy to see modi hate .. even on internet .. its always some puncturewala chuslim .. or a librandu .. please stop ruining another civilization .. haven't you destroyed enough countries with your Islamic terrorism.. you idol breaking cultist .. go and leave us alone ..
KingMachiavelli 6y ago
Only the largest social media companies will be able to comply with these laws. Assuming the summary isn't incorrect, these requirements are incredibly difficult to implement for small companies. Automated Filtering, Social Media User Verification, Traceability of Encrypted Content are all complex on both a technical & practical level. As I understand, setting up a basic mastodon instance or even just an IRC server could be in violation of these rules. (IRC might not count itself but hosting IRC and a web IRC gateway probably is). Some interesting parts (scroll down in the PDF to get the English version): > `social media intermediary‘ means an intermediary which primarily or solely enables online interaction between two or more users and allows them to create, upload, share, disseminate, modify or access information using its services; This means that a lot of this law applies to basically any communication platform. Not just the big ones. > Provided also that where the first originator of any information on the computer resource of an intermediary is located outside the territory of India, the first originator of that information within the territory of India shall be deemed to be the first originator of the information for the purpose of this clause. This puts enormous liability on tons of services & businesses. Running a tor relay and many other 'network over a network' type technologies will become problematic. Forget about running a tor exit node - unless you can just say that this IP is the originator. > where an intermediary collects information from a user for registration on the computer resource, it shall retain his information for a period of one hundred and eighty days after any cancellation or withdrawal of his registration, as the case may be; So now you have to wait 180 days for your information to really be removed. So much for privacy. It's also a bit weird in that it is exactly 180 days and not up to or at least which makes it a bit confusing in what its goal is. > The intermediary shall prominently publish on its website,mobile based application or both, as the case may be, the name of the Grievance Officer and his contact details as well as mechanism by which a user or a victim may make complaint against violation of the provisions of this rule or any other matters pertaining to the computer resources made available by it, and the Grievance Officer shall [...] So you'll need about 3-5 employees just for hosting a image board, etc. > [Section 4] [...] appoint a nodal contact person for 24x7 coordination with law enforcement agencies and officers to ensure compliance to their orders or requisitions made in accordance with the provisions of law or rules made thereunder. > [Section 6] The Ministry may by order, for reasons to be recorded in writing, require any intermediary, which is not a significant social media intermediary, to comply with all or any of the obligations mentioned under rule 4, if the services of that intermediary permits the publication or transmission of information in a manner that may create a material risk of harm to the sovereignty and integrity of India, security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States or public order. So the government can basically force any communication platform/service to have a 24/7 contact/staff for cooperating with law enforcement. Essentially, any low moderation platform could be forced overnight to higher additional staff or more likely; shut down since it would be no longer economical or worthwhile to operate.
drieddust 6y ago
These law may be bad but tell me why social media giants should be allowed to have their own censorship over the law of sovereign countries?
- devwastaken 6y ago
  Can you give an example?
  - drieddust 6y ago
    Well censoring of Trump is best example. Another recent one is Facebook trying to ban and influence Unganda Elections. In General these social media giants are extremely liberal towards Iran and China but they are eager to ban Trump and trample anyone not agreeing with idealogical standing of their staff. [1] https://qz.com/africa/1955331/facebook-takes-down-pro-museveni-accounts-as-election-nears/ https://qz.com/africa/1955331/facebook-takes-down-pro-museve...
- rishav_sharan 6y ago
  Because they are private owners of that platform? And seeing the wannabe fascists in power today in India, I'd rather trust a tech giant over this regime anyday
  - drieddust 6y ago
    Typical strawman argument with no logical reasoning.
throwaway987861 6y ago
Posting this from a throwaway just to be safe. For people outside India, here's what you can expect to see in terms of comments in this thread: - New accounts defending the government - People saying things like "stop interfering in India's business you Western people" - Badmouthing Mozilla with dysfunctional arguments against things - People bringing up examples like "but XYZ did the same, I don't see why this government gets all the blame" - Outright saying racist things against non-Indians Basically anything and everything to justify the actions Mozilla thinks are bad. I don't know how it looks like from outside, but things have been pretty bad. Google "IT Cell" with the country name. TLDR: It almost feels like a dystopia, and this is another step to make that happen.
- saimiam 6y ago
  And the guy in charge got a cricket stadium named after him. Think about it for a second - an active politician having a stadium named after him. It’s like Obama getting O’Hare renamed after himself while he was still President.
- higerordermap 6y ago
  It doesn't require an IT cell to do this. Modi is doing exactly what Trump did in US. But Modi playing the same game intelligently.
naruvimama 6y ago
This isn't happening in isolation. India's adversaries like China and Pakistan are dictatorships. There is asymmetry in information warfare. The media giants are not exactly neutral and are already involved in content vetting. India still has an independent judiciary, and the democratically elected government has the mandate to regulate.
- wtmt 6y ago
  > India still has an independent judiciary... That’s highly questionable depending on the level of the judiciary being discussed. The highest court (Supreme Court) has sided more often with the executive and takes years to start hearing cases of national importance. Some of the High Courts are better.
  - srean 6y ago
    Ex chief justice agrees with you on how ineffective the supreme court is
    - naruvimama 6y ago
      Ahh the enlightenment after retirement
  - naruvimama 6y ago
    If you do not trust the democracy or the judiciary, why are you even bothered by the law.
happy-go-lucky 6y ago
If it's all about using a disclosed identity to help law enforcement solve a crime, law-abiding citizens would have nothing to cry foul over. On the other hand, if you are required to disclose your identity when your anonymity clashes with the policies and procedures of governments, this is unfair since it stands in the way of freedom of expression and hints at fascistic intimidation tactics.
- srean 6y ago
  You might find Disha Ravi case and the court proceedings informative https://www.thequint.com/news/india/disha-ravi-charged-with-sedition-advocated-for-india-at-global-fff-forum-climate-change-toolkit-farmers-protest https://www.thequint.com/news/india/disha-ravi-charged-with-...
  - drieddust 6y ago
    This "environmental activist" is supporting an agitation demanding freedom to burn stubble and cause pollution choking 20 million people of Delhi[1]. Having said that India have some actual activists responsible for creating forests single handedly with their own money[2][3]. Incidentally present "fasist" government honoured them while previous liberal progressive government fail to notice them. These life long activists get no coverage while faker like Greta and Disha rules the headlines. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-india-54930380 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadav_Payeng https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadav_Payeng [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saalumarada_Thimmakka#:~:text=Saalumarada%20Thimmakka%2C%20also%20known%20as,planted%20nearly%208000%20other%20trees https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saalumarada_Thimmakka#:~:tex....
    - trashme 6y ago
      The environmental activists you linked to (2 and 3) are motivated purely by altruism. They are doers. > while faker like Greta and Disha rules the headlines. They are armchair activists.
    - 6y ago
wornohaulus 6y ago
Indians have elected their government .. and any third party which is non state actor has no control or say over it .. especially if the same social media companies bring their own agenda along and distort reality at larger scale .. its better to distort reality at an individual level by another individual.. but a social media with enough resources can twist any fact and have much far reaching consequences .. we have chosen our own demons to fight .. we dont want some international privately owned companies what is wrong and what is right !! at least with a right leaning government, we own our own failures .. otherwise stop deplatforming people and be truly neutral ..then we will see.. a social media is just a tool for entertainment.. these white men sitting in their thrones dont decide my countries future .. especially when we already have an extremely stupid left leaning ecosystem already destroying any sort of progress and distorting it.. this global left movement has already won in USA .. and even europe .. we won't let it win here in India .. at any cost !
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
haskal 6y ago
Please ignore the trolls, ramblings, and especially the newly created accounts. The current ruling party in India has an IT cell that tries to shape opinions online irrespective of the platform.
- rishav_sharan 6y ago
  I can see dang holding his head the moment he saw another India thread hit the HN front page. :D
- xwolfi 6y ago
  But isnt ignoring opinions of people who may have elected them in the first place a bit strange ? You can call them bot or paid influencers if you want, but they may double down next elections :D
  - srean 6y ago
    They get only one vote assuming elections aren't gamed. No such restriction applies for number of accounts
    - higerordermap 6y ago
      You're underestimating how conservative people are in general. There is a fear of Islam propagation in general populace of India, and there are valid reasons for it. When you have uninformed general populace, it's easy to portray yourselves as protector of the culture and they will become fans of you, and defend every action of you. It doesn't matter you make their lives bad, corruption becomes rampant or economy goes shit. All that matters is creating a common enemy for all people. It has worked well for BJP, because the opposition party was full of nepotism and old tactics such as minority appeasement. They came late to this propaganda game, and as long as they are nepotistic and have this muslim party image they can't do shit. I don't think all people defending modi here are paid to do that. Let's be real, they are emotionally connected. And the problem cannot be solved by dismissing more than half of the population.
ffpip 6y ago
So many new accounts and flagged comments. Welcome IT Cell :) .
known 6y ago
Fascists/Bigots in India think Anti-govt != Anti-national :(
known 6y ago
Narendra Modi is a con-man who chose politics as career to make money; He doesn't have any credible Education/Qualifications other than Bigotry/Narcissism; And Modi is privy/proxy to Pyramid schemes run by Ambani/Adani; https://archive.is/pOmij https://archive.is/pOmij https://archive.is/tYGx3 https://archive.is/tYGx3 https://archive.is/96VWx https://archive.is/96VWx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots Continued presence of Narendra Modi will break India https://www.quora.com/Should-only-Hindus-be-elected-to-public-office/answer/Taruni-Adarsh-1 https://www.quora.com/Should-only-Hindus-be-elected-to-publi... "Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first" --Ronald Reagan (b. 1911)
realshadow 6y ago
I can hold my government accountable but not MNCs(East India Comapnies). Thats why i welcome these laws. Coroptations put shareholders interst above anything else, from environment to human beings.
l0k3ndr 6y ago
The only positive I see in this is that these kind of government actions on social media giants can push decentralised web more. By it's nature peer-to-peer systems will be beyond control of government. Internet was not supposed to be just twitter/facebook combo which it has now become. A lot of news nowadays are coming just from twitter trends on indian tv channels which is not right all the time. Mostly it's celebrity or big boss gossip but we can't rule out that twitter can start a war inside any country if it wants. I am not sure these laws will solve any problems with the current internet. Some problems which I would like to see solved would be: 1. Tracing people who morph images real people and ruin their normal life. If this is a criminal offence and what's the point if people can easily get away with this. Internet by and large can have a mechanism to trace and banish such bad actors. 2. Too much dependence on twitter/facebook/google. It's fucked up. Why CEO of these companies have so much power over our planet. Twitter can literally cause world war by sending misinformation if it wants. It's scary to just imagine how much power Dorsey has. May be he is a good man, but is it worth to trust one man over the stability of this planet? 3. Manipulation with bots. There should be certain amount of weightage given to verified accounts as well as posts with links to verified articles. I want to see the real votes of real people - not the trends of automated bot armies. My suggestion to Indian government on these laws would be - Applying hammers won't solve anything in long term. What will be better is to make people question what is right and wrong for internet themselves; Bring this discussion internationally and use the international platform to tell what problems are spread on internet - and tell the options people can choose in long term. Have a vote internationally may be.
- drieddust 6y ago
  I will be more than happy if decentralised web emerges. However, I am not ok with likes of Jack Dorosy calling the shots over Countries and elected Goverments.
  - l0k3ndr 6y ago
    Agreed. Although it's the concentration of power that is harmful in long term than who is holding that power. Moreover, I am not sure how much manipulation humans are able to detect ; a small misinformation injected into twitter timeline or a small bias in facebook can cause ripples across the world's outlook over time that we can't even notice when it's happening. Social media companies which provide these feeds always get away by saying it's by the algorithm recommendation but who is tuning those parameters? Only a small amount of human population asks 'why' type of question and rest of them just absorb the content and it shapes their mind. I watched the movie Social Dilemma sometime back and slowly this has been dawning on me - wtf we are witnessing. World is falling in hands of these social media companies, they are storing our data, they profile us, they manipulate what we see, they tell us what they want us to see ; it's mind-boggling that the world is sleeping on this much centralisation of power happening in broad daylight.
john2010 6y ago
Does no one in Indian govt think that of where India should go in the long-term (30-50 years). Sure few large Indian companies are with them now. What happens then? Seems to me this will be a lost opportunity to be a leader (equal leader) in BRICS. Or do they think that they can be self-sufficient?
- higerordermap 6y ago
  Pretty sure trying to follow either Russia or China. Not sure which one.
wtmt 6y ago
This is a reaction to opposing voices that wants to quell those quickly anytime they arise. There hasn’t been, and there won’t be, any action taken against supporters of the government or even government authorities even when they incite murder in prepared and recorded public speeches (search online for “shoot the traitors” remark). This is also one more of those “all encryption should have backdoors so that the government alone can snoop” (as if the government is always trustworthy, responsible, and is one single, uniform and dedicated being). This playbook has been seen in other countries too, even the developed ones. The government and authorities don’t even provide any information about random website blocking orders or any way to get incorrectly implemented orders resolved quickly. It’s one sided to aid those in power and take power from those who are already on the other side of the scale. We don’t need more of this.
- thunkshift1 6y ago
  ...Which is hypocritical when us based tech companies extend the same privileges to us govt, no questions asked. If you are a growing company vying to capture one of the biggest internet markets in the world, do you think the govt in that market is just going to sit by and let things happen without some of the afore mentioned privileges coming their way? Thats not going to happen. At all. I think over the next few years every govt is going to have some laws along same the lines.
known 6y ago
Hinduism made India the most racist country in the World; https://archive.is/mPsqz https://archive.is/mPsqz Casteism is worse than Racism; Casteism = Racism + Slavery; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) Let us give Brahmin a separate country; They're just 3% in India; https://archive.is/8JsAm https://archive.is/8JsAm

172 points by searchableguy 6y ago

iamAtom 6y ago

Ah shit, here we go again.

numToStr 6y ago

Stupid people making laws for the things that they don't fully understands.

throwaway198812 6y ago
Racist much? Not sure if you are Indian, but calling other people of different race stupid for protecting it’s own country makes you look crap, and you very well might be.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- s3tz 6y ago
  Don't think anybody was thinking about race here. More like taking aim at the political do gooder class.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- creata 6y ago
  Be a bit more generous in your interpretation of others' comments. Looking at the commenter's post history, it's pretty clear that they're talking about the Indian government.
drieddust 6y ago
Your argument will hold true if social media companies act as a platform and don't censor or intervene. In reality they take sides and push their agenda so this is bound to happen. Companies coming together to de-platform Trump and Twitter CEO admitting that twitter employees are left leaning are very good examples of why this would happen.
- revendell_elf 6y ago
  But those are the "experts" from the West. They believe that censoring Trump was correct but a country who wants to save it's sovereignty is incorrect and should not happen. It goes against their narrative.
  - drieddust 6y ago
    Champions of free expression wants to grant more power to Jack and his cohort than to the democratically elected Government because Governments are corrupt but Jack is not. How Ironic?
    - creata 6y ago
      Yes, I want Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter, to have more control over Twitter than the government. > the democratically elected Government The democratically elected government was elected for a million different reasons, but their proficiency at managing social media networks was not one of them. And, you know, controlling every single social network is just a bit more dangerous than controlling one.
    - yuriko_boyko 6y ago
      Their manifesto did not say that they'll regulate social media and try to limit internet freedoms. They were not elected for that. Can any future election be truly democratic if those in power get to issue content takedowns?
      - drieddust 6y ago
garrytan 6y ago
Think twice before calling law makers stupid , that too the eminent layers of the country with 1.5 Billion people and worlds biggest democracy. With what kind of preconceived opinion you think that "things that they don't fully understands." This is racism at its peak. And can you even understand the article attached which is in hindi? If you would have , you could have made a reasonable argument here rather than making such a stupid argument. what right do you have to name people you don’t even know ? You don't have any and yet you go on and abuse people with your racist mentality.
- abdcefgh 6y ago
  Sir, how much do they pay trolls these days? I want a job too.
- rishav_sharan 6y ago
  As someone who understands Hindi, yeah I have to concur it's a authoritarian and stupid law. It will only be selectively enforced and seeing the track record of this regime, it will be used to suppress dissent.
  - mayuresh 6y ago
    As someone who understands English as well, yeah, I have to concur that social media giants like Twitter have gotten more powerful than necessary. The law is just right, and at the right time, nothing stupid about it.
    - tejasgarde 6y ago
      Agree Social media platforms gotten more powerful than necessary. Also Saying new laws are suppressing freedom of speech is not enough , for sake of valid argument one must point out which clause/sub clause of the said law mentions this suppression.
      - mayuresh 6y ago
        I am not at all of the opinion that the new laws suppress freedom of speech. I was countering the previous comment using sarcasm as a means to convey the futility of their argument.

sadfev 6y ago

Well the power is stripped away from unregulated social media giants, so the feeble dependents (Mozilla) are raging on that how it will “harm” internet and “curtail” freedom. Play stupid games and win stupid prices. No govt will surrender sovereignty and media control. Just because US is dumb enough to completely surrender itself to Social media megatech companies that doesn’t mean everyone else wants to.

throwaway198812 6y ago
You are going to be downvoted by so called experts from the West who think they know how the world works, and their way is the only right way.
- revendell_elf 6y ago
  He has been downvoted already. This is pretty much expected from "Experts from the West". And here I thought HN was unbiased.
  - throwaway198812 6y ago
    The one thing people in the West know is how to be parochial about the world, and they don’t even know how the Midwest works in their own country. After “democracy” and “human rights”, “internet freedom” and “climate change” are going to be the new fronts, and Jack Dorsey is growing his beard to look like Ayatollah of Market St.
uniclaude 6y ago
The view that governments are necessarily trying to control information unless they’re dumb is not universally shared. This has little to do with surrendering sovereignty.
- revendell_elf 6y ago
  But the view that companies trying to censor and control information is universally acceptable, right? I think most the universe lies in the West.

throwaway198812 6y ago

Mozilla CEO : we need more than deplatforming for Trump supporters. Also Mozilla : hey India, don’t come in between our empire building process. If India’s laws are hurting Mozilla and the big tech, they are going to be right.

throwaway198812 6y ago
https://www.verdict.co.uk/mozilla-ceo-deplatforming/ https://www.verdict.co.uk/mozilla-ceo-deplatforming/ The moment the tech companies started using the earned influence for political gains, it was game over, Internet was going to be split. Don’t take other countries courtesy for granted, if they are allowing you to operate doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want to do.

nathias 6y ago

People who see some good in this are naive, its no a blow to the social media giants, the big players can always afford to be an exception to regulation ....

pmontra 6y ago
Of course. Google for this: over regulation benefits the incumbent. I quote one of the results > More generally, however, a higher overall level of regulation in a country can benefit larger incumbent firms that have the resources to shoulder compliance costs while their smaller competitors falter in the face of an increasing regulatory burden.
WeekSpeller 6y ago
They aren't naïve at all, you are naïve. India's decline in democracy index is not an accident.

hn-private-364 6y ago

This law is clearly made by people who know what they're demanding: instead of China's closed wall garden of internet, the ruling BJP party realizes they can have their cake and eat it as well. They want to allow multi-national corporations to exist in the country because removing them in the near future is going to cause a dent in their own operational policy. But rather, they clearly want to control these companies so they peddle only their own approved messaging. The approved messaging however is not to toe to any standards of tolerance or deceny. The ruling party has an active social media campaign with tens of thousands of people actively spreading hate and lies through WhatsApp and Facebook. https://www.firstpost.com/india/massive-tweet-volumes-complex-hierarchies-coordinated-attacks-hacker-reveals-how-bjp-congress-it-cells-wage-war-on-social-media-7965121.html https://www.firstpost.com/india/massive-tweet-volumes-comple... They prosecute citizens who stand up against them under sedition charges, which are non-bailable offences. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56068522 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56068522 They most recently started another WhatsApp Hate Factory group. https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/02/15/we-infiltrated-the-telegram-groups-of-the-bjp-leaders-online-network-to-see-what-they-do https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/02/15/we-infiltrated-the-te... This government is not shy about their right-wing communal leaning. They want to create a country that is hospitable to only one majority religion, and within that they do not allow free expression that goes against their wishes. This is just another step in the direction, and the times are dark indeed.

frongpik 6y ago
There's clearly a trend: the more people live in a country, the more paranoidal and authoritarian its rulers. They are afraid of their people and want more control. That's understandable.
- techdragon 6y ago
  This prompts the next question... what can those of us who don’t want this slide towards authoritarianism to continue, do about it? Regardless of political/social viewpoints, I don’t think it matters if you consider your political views left, right, up, down, a, b or start... for the most part these views are compatible with free expression and “lowercase l” liberal democracy. Notwithstanding notable exceptions such as capital F Fascism or capital N Nazism, where being authoritarian is literally part of the political philosophy. So how do we resist this trend? I’m not talking about rallies and counter-protesting, that won’t help shit when it’s happening in other countries. How do we make liberty and democracy better so that people want it enough to say no to the continuing pressure towards alternatives... ?

fatninja 6y ago

Key points from the article 1. Traceability of Encrypted Content 2. Harsh Content Take Down and Data Sharing Timelines 3. User Directed Take Downs of Non-Consensual Sexually Explicit Content and Morphed/Impersonated Content 4. Social Media User Verification 5. Automated Filtering 6. Digital Media Regulation Except point 3. Read each sentence with "Do not do" and see if it makes sense for internet.

dman 6y ago
Any pointers to the wording of the law itself? I cant appear to find it on a govt website yet.
- markha 6y ago
  How about https://www.meity.gov.in/writereaddata/files/Intermediary_Guidelines_and_Digital_Media_Ethics_Code_Rules-2021.pdf https://www.meity.gov.in/writereaddata/files/Intermediary_Gu... Keep scrolling for the English translation Ref: https://www.meity.gov.in/content/gazettes https://www.meity.gov.in/content/gazettes
  - dman 6y ago
    Thank you!!

lurker_1010 6y ago

Hey there. I have been a lurker on HN. I made this account just to comment on this thread. I am an Indian and live in India and I'm glad that international media is paying attention to what is going on here. I used tor to create this account because I'm afraid of this govt. This govt is a classic fascist one. On the same lines of NSDP of Germany. Those who are dissing Mozilla for shining the light on what is obviously an attempt to censor critical voices on internet, should also point out that India has enacted laws which allow Police to incarcerate people without trial, without bail for years. So many of our intellectuals are in jail and they have not faced a single day of trial. There is so much to talk about what is going on in India. Let me just lay out a few points: 1. We have enacted a set of laws which will lead to loss of citizenship for Muslims. 2. We have enacted laws prohibiting marriage between interfaith couples (Nuremberg laws anyone). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Jihad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Jihad 3. Thugs of ruling party are roaming the streets catching couples belonging to different faiths, especially if the boy is muslim and girl is hindu. A young muslim boy is still in jail because he attended the birthday party of a hindu girl. 4. A hindu girls pregnancy from her muslim husband was forcibly aborted. Shame on Indian diaspora for supporting all of this. You guys should know that the endgame is wholesale genocide of muslims here

bg117 6y ago

Privacy is not such a big thing. Most of the Asian societies have been very open in the past and privacy only hurts it. But, with the power to monitor people in the hands of government or social media companies, it is better to have at-least some privacy. Encryption for financial transactions is a must. Reputations can be built and tarnished easily very rapidly. It is natural that there should be adequate protections in law. Social media should not be used to incite mobs or fan riots. More such actions are required to prevent unnecessary conflicts. Tracking user actions only help in identifying when trouble arises.

lain98 6y ago

Mozilla has lost all standing as a defender of free speech. They have cheered on when the free speech rights of american citizens was being curbed. And they track their users while also taking money from google. I am sorry that the fancy minimal cartoony graphics and plastering black and brown faces on your homepage does not cut it anymore. >India’s new intermediary liability and digital media regulations will harm the open internet No, it will harm mozilla's interests, and its biggest customers(google at al). >Under the new rules, law enforcement agencies can demand that companies trace the ‘first originator’ of any message. How is this different from when a US court asks a company to aid in an investigation. >Short timelines of 36 hours for content take downs and 72 hours for the sharing of user data for all intermediaries pose significant implementation and freedom of expression challenges So if it were to become 100 hours or 200 hours it would be okay ??? If you are not accepting liability for user content, the government has a right to say what is and is not acceptable content. If anything, 36 hours is too much time. >User Directed Take Downs of Non-Consensual Sexually Explicit Content and Morphed/Impersonated Content Taking down revenge porn is bad ?? >Social Media User Verification This is indefensible and I agree. >Automated Filtering: While improved from its earlier iteration in the 2018 draft, the provisions to “endeavor” to carry out automated filtering for child sexual abuse materials (CSAM), non-consensual sexual acts and previously removed content apply to all significant social media intermediaries (including end to end encrypted messaging applications). This is a good move, albeit not technically possible in case of e2e encryption. Overall, the intention seems good albeit a few regulations that are not possible. I am not sure why Mozilla is hand wringing over this, or what locus standi they have on the issue. They have already lost any goodwill they used to have.

garrytan 6y ago

The Article states that "Ripple effects of these provisions will have a devastating impact on freedom of expression, privacy and security" This is not true at all. Rather In his Speech Union minister Ravi Shankar Prasad (Minister of Communications) Stated clearly states that. "We all respect the right of the people to criticise us but will take action if social media is used for violence and fake news and will take actions if anyone misses social media to impact polls" He also added "I want to tell social media giants , work here but follow our laws" Every country has right to protect itself, wether the threat is from Terror or Fake news . Indian Government is doing exactly the same as this so called Freedom of Speech can not be used to hide fake news and Monarchy of tech Giants (it is crystal clear by the double standards of some social media platform as how they handled the accounts of those involved in Capitol hills riots and Violent Protest at Delhi Red Fort On Republic Day of India.) These are not the rules to curb freedom of speech , but it is a platform to burst fake news, protect women from abusive messages and tweetes. No Social media message will be blocked. Rather these rules will protect citizens from dark side of social media. As article claims , there wont be any devastating impact on freedom of expression privacy and security. The article is in english, but the attached rules are in Hindi. I would urge the author to attach english version of it so that people can understand it well rather than relying on this article alone.

qart 6y ago
The attached rules are in Hindi and English. Scroll to page 19.

justforfunhere 6y ago

Several new accounts commenting on this thread, created just around the time when this story was submitted. They hide behind the tech that these laws are threatening to take down. It's going to hurt everyone, regardless of their political loyalties or faith.

devwastaken 6y ago

There is an odd trend in pieces submitted about india that spawns new accounts in support of whatever it is the india government is doing. I'm in the west so probably better to updoot someone from india that has better insight. This is just my observation. If what mozilla is saying is true this is a very obvious power grab that only applies to law abiding people. Internet protocols don't care about laws, you can try to enforce origin IP's and ban E2E encryption but bad actors can use these regardless of the law. It's all simply math and basic network packets. Any software cryptographer or experienced programmer can tell you that. Meaning the intentions of this legislation cannot be honest, and therefore it's not for good. As for social media regulation - by creating special regulations you lock in the current market. For example the reason why you can't compete with youtube in western markets is because youtube has to have very advanced processing heavy algorithms for content detection because copyright infringement, illigal material, etc. But japan has all their own ecosystem of social media and video. The government also isn't somehow the good guys when trying to regulate big social media. If you give them the power to do that then they can also be the ones to shut down alternative social media with fines, police, and guns.

blackoil 6y ago
Welcome to the New India, where it is difficult to differentiate between trolls, fanatics and media and to some extent general public.
naruvimama 6y ago
Have you also not noticed that the vast majority are critical of the government. The problem with crying wolf is that, when the wolf does really emerge people would ignore your cries.
- sumedh 6y ago
  > The problem with crying wolf is that, India is one of the most corrupt countries in the world so people complaining is not exactly crying wolf.
2Gkashmiri 6y ago

azifali 6y ago

Yet another regressive move from a repressive party trying to have the cake and eat it too, with free market policies where it makes sense and a China style control with a single party where convenient. These laws are likely to be enforced against Big Tech but the real losers are going to be users.

mayuresh 6y ago
I don't see how in any way nationalist and law abiding citizens of India are going to lose anything.
wornohaulus 6y ago
your religion is a single party repressive move .. go and question your religion first .. its so easy to see modi hate .. even on internet .. its always some puncturewala chuslim .. or a librandu .. please stop ruining another civilization .. haven't you destroyed enough countries with your Islamic terrorism.. you idol breaking cultist .. go and leave us alone ..

KingMachiavelli 6y ago

Only the largest social media companies will be able to comply with these laws. Assuming the summary isn't incorrect, these requirements are incredibly difficult to implement for small companies. Automated Filtering, Social Media User Verification, Traceability of Encrypted Content are all complex on both a technical & practical level. As I understand, setting up a basic mastodon instance or even just an IRC server could be in violation of these rules. (IRC might not count itself but hosting IRC and a web IRC gateway probably is). Some interesting parts (scroll down in the PDF to get the English version): > `social media intermediary‘ means an intermediary which primarily or solely enables online interaction between two or more users and allows them to create, upload, share, disseminate, modify or access information using its services; This means that a lot of this law applies to basically any communication platform. Not just the big ones. > Provided also that where the first originator of any information on the computer resource of an intermediary is located outside the territory of India, the first originator of that information within the territory of India shall be deemed to be the first originator of the information for the purpose of this clause. This puts enormous liability on tons of services & businesses. Running a tor relay and many other 'network over a network' type technologies will become problematic. Forget about running a tor exit node - unless you can just say that this IP is the originator. > where an intermediary collects information from a user for registration on the computer resource, it shall retain his information for a period of one hundred and eighty days after any cancellation or withdrawal of his registration, as the case may be; So now you have to wait 180 days for your information to really be removed. So much for privacy. It's also a bit weird in that it is exactly 180 days and not up to or at least which makes it a bit confusing in what its goal is. > The intermediary shall prominently publish on its website,mobile based application or both, as the case may be, the name of the Grievance Officer and his contact details as well as mechanism by which a user or a victim may make complaint against violation of the provisions of this rule or any other matters pertaining to the computer resources made available by it, and the Grievance Officer shall [...] So you'll need about 3-5 employees just for hosting a image board, etc. > [Section 4] [...] appoint a nodal contact person for 24x7 coordination with law enforcement agencies and officers to ensure compliance to their orders or requisitions made in accordance with the provisions of law or rules made thereunder. > [Section 6] The Ministry may by order, for reasons to be recorded in writing, require any intermediary, which is not a significant social media intermediary, to comply with all or any of the obligations mentioned under rule 4, if the services of that intermediary permits the publication or transmission of information in a manner that may create a material risk of harm to the sovereignty and integrity of India, security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States or public order. So the government can basically force any communication platform/service to have a 24/7 contact/staff for cooperating with law enforcement. Essentially, any low moderation platform could be forced overnight to higher additional staff or more likely; shut down since it would be no longer economical or worthwhile to operate.

drieddust 6y ago

These law may be bad but tell me why social media giants should be allowed to have their own censorship over the law of sovereign countries?

devwastaken 6y ago
Can you give an example?
- drieddust 6y ago
  Well censoring of Trump is best example. Another recent one is Facebook trying to ban and influence Unganda Elections. In General these social media giants are extremely liberal towards Iran and China but they are eager to ban Trump and trample anyone not agreeing with idealogical standing of their staff. [1] https://qz.com/africa/1955331/facebook-takes-down-pro-museveni-accounts-as-election-nears/ https://qz.com/africa/1955331/facebook-takes-down-pro-museve...
rishav_sharan 6y ago
Because they are private owners of that platform? And seeing the wannabe fascists in power today in India, I'd rather trust a tech giant over this regime anyday
- drieddust 6y ago
  Typical strawman argument with no logical reasoning.

throwaway987861 6y ago

Posting this from a throwaway just to be safe. For people outside India, here's what you can expect to see in terms of comments in this thread: - New accounts defending the government - People saying things like "stop interfering in India's business you Western people" - Badmouthing Mozilla with dysfunctional arguments against things - People bringing up examples like "but XYZ did the same, I don't see why this government gets all the blame" - Outright saying racist things against non-Indians Basically anything and everything to justify the actions Mozilla thinks are bad. I don't know how it looks like from outside, but things have been pretty bad. Google "IT Cell" with the country name. TLDR: It almost feels like a dystopia, and this is another step to make that happen.

saimiam 6y ago
And the guy in charge got a cricket stadium named after him. Think about it for a second - an active politician having a stadium named after him. It’s like Obama getting O’Hare renamed after himself while he was still President.
higerordermap 6y ago
It doesn't require an IT cell to do this. Modi is doing exactly what Trump did in US. But Modi playing the same game intelligently.

naruvimama 6y ago

This isn't happening in isolation. India's adversaries like China and Pakistan are dictatorships. There is asymmetry in information warfare. The media giants are not exactly neutral and are already involved in content vetting. India still has an independent judiciary, and the democratically elected government has the mandate to regulate.

wtmt 6y ago
> India still has an independent judiciary... That’s highly questionable depending on the level of the judiciary being discussed. The highest court (Supreme Court) has sided more often with the executive and takes years to start hearing cases of national importance. Some of the High Courts are better.
- srean 6y ago
  Ex chief justice agrees with you on how ineffective the supreme court is
  - naruvimama 6y ago
    Ahh the enlightenment after retirement
- naruvimama 6y ago
  If you do not trust the democracy or the judiciary, why are you even bothered by the law.

happy-go-lucky 6y ago

If it's all about using a disclosed identity to help law enforcement solve a crime, law-abiding citizens would have nothing to cry foul over. On the other hand, if you are required to disclose your identity when your anonymity clashes with the policies and procedures of governments, this is unfair since it stands in the way of freedom of expression and hints at fascistic intimidation tactics.

srean 6y ago
You might find Disha Ravi case and the court proceedings informative https://www.thequint.com/news/india/disha-ravi-charged-with-sedition-advocated-for-india-at-global-fff-forum-climate-change-toolkit-farmers-protest https://www.thequint.com/news/india/disha-ravi-charged-with-...
- drieddust 6y ago
  This "environmental activist" is supporting an agitation demanding freedom to burn stubble and cause pollution choking 20 million people of Delhi[1]. Having said that India have some actual activists responsible for creating forests single handedly with their own money[2][3]. Incidentally present "fasist" government honoured them while previous liberal progressive government fail to notice them. These life long activists get no coverage while faker like Greta and Disha rules the headlines. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-india-54930380 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadav_Payeng https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadav_Payeng [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saalumarada_Thimmakka#:~:text=Saalumarada%20Thimmakka%2C%20also%20known%20as,planted%20nearly%208000%20other%20trees https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saalumarada_Thimmakka#:~:tex....
  - trashme 6y ago
    The environmental activists you linked to (2 and 3) are motivated purely by altruism. They are doers. > while faker like Greta and Disha rules the headlines. They are armchair activists.
  - 6y ago

wornohaulus 6y ago

Indians have elected their government .. and any third party which is non state actor has no control or say over it .. especially if the same social media companies bring their own agenda along and distort reality at larger scale .. its better to distort reality at an individual level by another individual.. but a social media with enough resources can twist any fact and have much far reaching consequences .. we have chosen our own demons to fight .. we dont want some international privately owned companies what is wrong and what is right !! at least with a right leaning government, we own our own failures .. otherwise stop deplatforming people and be truly neutral ..then we will see.. a social media is just a tool for entertainment.. these white men sitting in their thrones dont decide my countries future .. especially when we already have an extremely stupid left leaning ecosystem already destroying any sort of progress and distorting it.. this global left movement has already won in USA .. and even europe .. we won't let it win here in India .. at any cost !

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

haskal 6y ago

Please ignore the trolls, ramblings, and especially the newly created accounts. The current ruling party in India has an IT cell that tries to shape opinions online irrespective of the platform.

rishav_sharan 6y ago
I can see dang holding his head the moment he saw another India thread hit the HN front page. :D
xwolfi 6y ago
But isnt ignoring opinions of people who may have elected them in the first place a bit strange ? You can call them bot or paid influencers if you want, but they may double down next elections :D
- srean 6y ago
  They get only one vote assuming elections aren't gamed. No such restriction applies for number of accounts
  - higerordermap 6y ago
    You're underestimating how conservative people are in general. There is a fear of Islam propagation in general populace of India, and there are valid reasons for it. When you have uninformed general populace, it's easy to portray yourselves as protector of the culture and they will become fans of you, and defend every action of you. It doesn't matter you make their lives bad, corruption becomes rampant or economy goes shit. All that matters is creating a common enemy for all people. It has worked well for BJP, because the opposition party was full of nepotism and old tactics such as minority appeasement. They came late to this propaganda game, and as long as they are nepotistic and have this muslim party image they can't do shit. I don't think all people defending modi here are paid to do that. Let's be real, they are emotionally connected. And the problem cannot be solved by dismissing more than half of the population.

ffpip 6y ago

So many new accounts and flagged comments. Welcome IT Cell :) .

known 6y ago

Fascists/Bigots in India think Anti-govt != Anti-national :(

known 6y ago

Narendra Modi is a con-man who chose politics as career to make money; He doesn't have any credible Education/Qualifications other than Bigotry/Narcissism; And Modi is privy/proxy to Pyramid schemes run by Ambani/Adani; https://archive.is/pOmij https://archive.is/pOmij https://archive.is/tYGx3 https://archive.is/tYGx3 https://archive.is/96VWx https://archive.is/96VWx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots Continued presence of Narendra Modi will break India https://www.quora.com/Should-only-Hindus-be-elected-to-public-office/answer/Taruni-Adarsh-1 https://www.quora.com/Should-only-Hindus-be-elected-to-publi... "Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first" --Ronald Reagan (b. 1911)

realshadow 6y ago

I can hold my government accountable but not MNCs(East India Comapnies). Thats why i welcome these laws. Coroptations put shareholders interst above anything else, from environment to human beings.

l0k3ndr 6y ago

The only positive I see in this is that these kind of government actions on social media giants can push decentralised web more. By it's nature peer-to-peer systems will be beyond control of government. Internet was not supposed to be just twitter/facebook combo which it has now become. A lot of news nowadays are coming just from twitter trends on indian tv channels which is not right all the time. Mostly it's celebrity or big boss gossip but we can't rule out that twitter can start a war inside any country if it wants. I am not sure these laws will solve any problems with the current internet. Some problems which I would like to see solved would be: 1. Tracing people who morph images real people and ruin their normal life. If this is a criminal offence and what's the point if people can easily get away with this. Internet by and large can have a mechanism to trace and banish such bad actors. 2. Too much dependence on twitter/facebook/google. It's fucked up. Why CEO of these companies have so much power over our planet. Twitter can literally cause world war by sending misinformation if it wants. It's scary to just imagine how much power Dorsey has. May be he is a good man, but is it worth to trust one man over the stability of this planet? 3. Manipulation with bots. There should be certain amount of weightage given to verified accounts as well as posts with links to verified articles. I want to see the real votes of real people - not the trends of automated bot armies. My suggestion to Indian government on these laws would be - Applying hammers won't solve anything in long term. What will be better is to make people question what is right and wrong for internet themselves; Bring this discussion internationally and use the international platform to tell what problems are spread on internet - and tell the options people can choose in long term. Have a vote internationally may be.

drieddust 6y ago
I will be more than happy if decentralised web emerges. However, I am not ok with likes of Jack Dorosy calling the shots over Countries and elected Goverments.
- l0k3ndr 6y ago
  Agreed. Although it's the concentration of power that is harmful in long term than who is holding that power. Moreover, I am not sure how much manipulation humans are able to detect ; a small misinformation injected into twitter timeline or a small bias in facebook can cause ripples across the world's outlook over time that we can't even notice when it's happening. Social media companies which provide these feeds always get away by saying it's by the algorithm recommendation but who is tuning those parameters? Only a small amount of human population asks 'why' type of question and rest of them just absorb the content and it shapes their mind. I watched the movie Social Dilemma sometime back and slowly this has been dawning on me - wtf we are witnessing. World is falling in hands of these social media companies, they are storing our data, they profile us, they manipulate what we see, they tell us what they want us to see ; it's mind-boggling that the world is sleeping on this much centralisation of power happening in broad daylight.

john2010 6y ago

Does no one in Indian govt think that of where India should go in the long-term (30-50 years). Sure few large Indian companies are with them now. What happens then? Seems to me this will be a lost opportunity to be a leader (equal leader) in BRICS. Or do they think that they can be self-sufficient?

higerordermap 6y ago
Pretty sure trying to follow either Russia or China. Not sure which one.

wtmt 6y ago

This is a reaction to opposing voices that wants to quell those quickly anytime they arise. There hasn’t been, and there won’t be, any action taken against supporters of the government or even government authorities even when they incite murder in prepared and recorded public speeches (search online for “shoot the traitors” remark). This is also one more of those “all encryption should have backdoors so that the government alone can snoop” (as if the government is always trustworthy, responsible, and is one single, uniform and dedicated being). This playbook has been seen in other countries too, even the developed ones. The government and authorities don’t even provide any information about random website blocking orders or any way to get incorrectly implemented orders resolved quickly. It’s one sided to aid those in power and take power from those who are already on the other side of the scale. We don’t need more of this.

thunkshift1 6y ago
...Which is hypocritical when us based tech companies extend the same privileges to us govt, no questions asked. If you are a growing company vying to capture one of the biggest internet markets in the world, do you think the govt in that market is just going to sit by and let things happen without some of the afore mentioned privileges coming their way? Thats not going to happen. At all. I think over the next few years every govt is going to have some laws along same the lines.

known 6y ago

Hinduism made India the most racist country in the World; https://archive.is/mPsqz https://archive.is/mPsqz Casteism is worse than Racism; Casteism = Racism + Slavery; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) Let us give Brahmin a separate country; They're just 3% in India; https://archive.is/8JsAm https://archive.is/8JsAm