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Life is controversial by its very nature. I'm not saying you have to go full teenage edgelord, but we have to learn to accept that everyone has different lives

Life is controversial by its very nature. I'm not saying you have to go full teenage edgelord, but we have to learn to accept that everyone has different lives and experiences. These experiences lead to different viewpoints and opinions. I have very different viewpoints than even myself a few years ago. I imagine a completely different person in a different city or country would disagree with at least some of them. And you know what? I am okay with that. I don't like this fake-wokism SV monoculture creeping into everything. I wouldn't mind them sharing their opinions on things if they didn't have teeth. Somehow the professionally oppressed are backed by nearly every major corporation on the planet. It makes me overreact. I don't like it. Most people don't like it. Everything they say sounds like "Pick up that can, Citizen." Archive of twitter thread that started this: https://archive.md/VpYl2 https://archive.md/VpYl2

SilverRed 6y ago
>It makes me overreact. I don't like it I think a lot of people are feeling this and its probably what is pushing people in to extreme ideologies. You start off getting pissed off at actions like this and then you slowly gravitate as far away from these people as possible. Honestly I think public social media entirely is a bad experiment and probably needs to be stopped. It used to be that you would know your audience and make jokes to suit, some people are more sensitive to certain things but you would know this and avoid otherwise fine jokes. But now on the internet the audience is literally everyone so you are always going to step on someones toes. Even by something as tame as a rant on encrypted saves and IAPs.
- um_ya 6y ago
  The medium of exchange has transitioned from smaller local groups to larger groups. It's like a group of people all screaming in a room trying to talk over one another. The only voices that stand out are the most outrageous ones. Large group forums have less depth. You can see this on websites like Reddit, where the most popular subreddits are reactionary and shallow, while smaller ones have more depth, ideas, and conversation.
  - jkeat 6y ago
    I think you can see it in this thread, too, where many people are aghast at the maintainers' decision to remove the piece and citing it as evidence that jokes aren't allowed on the internet anymore.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
DubiousPusher 6y ago
And at the same time, widespread rejection of certain things people do and say is a critical part of changing popular ethics. I'm not saying I agree with every contemporary expression of wokeness. But we have made some progress in part because when someone said something "offensive" to their coworker or acuiantance the offended party told that person to stop. When people stop going along with things is when what is acceptable begins to change. Unfortunately, public shaming and ostricism seems to be a fundamental part of evolving social mortality.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  No one would think twice if this document contained something truely offensive or hateful and the maintainers refused to remove it. But the fact is people have taken this so far to the point that it’s not a means to an end, it’s a hobby. And now we have harmless jokes being taken down.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Also, the piece that got taken down is a piece that essentially mocks morally bankrupt companies for abusing people. That's about as opposite for what the woke thing stands for (or at least is supposed to) as you can get.
    - DubiousPusher 6y ago
      Yeah, I'm not citing this circumstance as a quality case. But the OP connected this to the general wokeness narrative. And while I have very ambivalent feelings about the current rash of performative indignation, I think it's important to point out that such pearl clutching and scandal is not new and has functioned to change society in ways most people probably agree with (i.e. the decline of tacit sexual harassment and casual racism).
- wott 6y ago
  > But we have made some progress in part because when someone said something "offensive" to their coworker or acuiantance the offended party told that person to stop. It has been a while since last time it was the actual offended party who complained. Nowadays, people who complain are people who pretend to be offended in the name of other people who, in the mind of the first ones, could be offended.
cycloptic 6y ago
There's a lot to unpack here and I'm feeling very confused as to what you're talking about. Godot is not a major corporation, and you seem to be dismissing someone's complaint as "fake-wokism" and "professionally oppressed" when the joke in question is very clearly made at the expense of a certain group of people (mobile game players). What is fake or contrived about this if you're in that group and don't like being the butt of these jokes as is happening here? I personally can see why someone would be offended by such cynical and condescending statements, even though I am not in that group. Also you're saying their opinions have "teeth" as if making a complaint is some kind of attack on something because it could potentially cause a change to happen, but if you take that view then what is the point of giving feedback if you know it won't be acted on? If you find yourself overreacting to someone else expressing their opinion, perhaps that is another opportunity to expand your viewpoint, instead of overreacting?
- iamcreasy 6y ago
  > What is fake or contrived about this if you're in that group and don't like being the butt of these jokes as is happening here? I think what OP is saying is accepting the difference and moving on is also a valid option.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    That isn't really a valid option though, if this kind of thing is in the official documentation, and you have to read it in order to use that particular feature. It would be there every time you have to refer back to the documentation or refer someone else to it.
- bitcharmer 6y ago
  > the joke in question is very clearly made at the expense of a certain group of people Have you ever been to a comedy club or watched a stand-up comedian perform? If everyone took your stance most jokes would be banned because you can always argue that they are at the expense of some group.
  - 6y ago
orthecreedence 6y ago
> twitter thread that started this Jesus can we just burn Twitter to the ground already? What a wasteland of morons with useless opinions it is.
- DarkCrusader2 6y ago
  I don't think the problem is with twitter here. Let people have opinions, even if you think they are useless. They are opinions after all. Your issue should be with the maintainers who will remove any content on the slightest objection to it in a bid to do the "right" thing by whatever group of people got offended by it.
  - meheleventyone 6y ago
    I mean the whole thing is a total non-issue. Someone writes a silly screed in docs, someone notices it and points it out, maintainers of a project that wants some semblance of professionalism remove dumb screed. As a maintainer I wouldn’t even remove it for content but just because it’s clearly a detriment to the document.
  - tremon 6y ago
    Aren't you engaging in victim-blaming here? Shouldn't you be blaming the mob, not the individual maintainer giving in to the mob?
    - bondarchuk 6y ago
      I think we should be blaming anyone who complies with the mob, since that is the only thing that gives the mob power. If everyone just ignored them, this phenomenon would peter out quite fast.
      - rcxdude 6y ago
        Don't underestimate the power of a mob, even an internet mob. They can and have done a lot of damage to people, even those who don't directly engage with them (especially when they attack those who don't have a lot of individual power: ironically while those who participate in them seem to have a sense of 'punching up', they can only hurt those for which they are as a collective punching down).
iFreilicht 6y ago
What surprises me the most is that in all the controversy, nobody tried to interpret the text as what it clearly was; a criticism of practices in mobile game development. Instead, they got offended by the very thing the text was crticising, which is viewing the players of mobile games as a lower class of human that can and therefore must be milked for cash. It feels like the whole controversy is just a misunderstanding of two groups having the same idea, but wording it differently.
- sfg 6y ago
  Yeah, after reading the deleted text I couldn't understand the controversy, so I read some of that Twitter thread. They clearly had not understood what they had read, having missed all nuance as they made their very literal interpretation of the piece. It was bizarre to see them zoom in on little details, such as picking apart 'we/us' vs 'they/their', whilst missing the entirety of what was going on in the text (including why 'they/their' were used). I guess, it isn't really their fault. Nobody chooses to misunderstand something(do they?). I just wish it had not led to the destruction of something interesting, but if it hadn't, then I would probably never have seen the deleted text; so, maybe, I should be thankful they brought it to my attention, even while wishing someone could have explained the text to them; or, at least, managed to convince them that sometimes it is best to ignore something you don't like, rather than go to war.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Nobody chooses to misunderstand something No - but people who write sarcastic or satirical things are deliberately choosing to make themselves more likely to be misunderstood. Why would you do that?
    - sfg 6y ago
      Some things are communicated outside of the surface level of literal text that cannot be communicated within it. Even if they could be, some people enjoy nuance and complexity and think they are worthwhile for their own sake. But really, this can't be explained in this fashion (and in this is the explanation...). Go look at a painting, read some poetry, listen to some music, enjoy a conversation with some friends, and ponder an interesting idea, and after all that reflect upon what you have experienced, and then, maybe, you'll be enlightened.
oap_bram 6y ago
I've had a conversation with this person on Twitter as well, and immediately blocked me for not being "good faith" while she casually throws around terms like "dirtbag left" and "those East Block country devs are caustic". I'm all for a more inclusive community, but spewing toxicity against a certain political ideology and using classicism in the process makes you a bigger problem than the piece itself imho.
- spiralx 6y ago
  The "dirtbag left" is a particular segment of leftist podcasters who called themselves that e.g. the hosts of the Chapo Trap House podcast. The other statement seems toxic however.
  - junke 6y ago
    The other statement is not a direct quotation.
- majjgepolja 6y ago
  Twitter is officially 4chan now.
- junke 6y ago
  You can't in good faith use quotation marks when the quoted thing was not said. The "dirtbag left" comment was already quoted, not written as-is, and the other tweet said: "I’ve seen some impressively caustic stuff from that area at times." Also you and other in this threads seem determined to use them as a scapegoat for all that happens around this joke.
- cryptoquick 6y ago
  Wow, what a toxic person. I think counterculture is an important part of the tech community, and for this to be removed is... Saddening.
majjgepolja 6y ago
The thread is everything that's wrong with Twitter.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nivenkos 6y ago
This is sad, there is no free expression anymore. You can't have any jokes or sarcasm in code comments, between colleagues or in documentation. Everything must be soulless and sterile. Just churn out your work as an appendage to the machine, with no culture or expression.
k__ 6y ago
"I don't like this fake-wokism SV monoculture creeping into everything" At least, it's replacing the awkward dudebro monoculture that crept into everything.
andrewprock 6y ago
Reading that, it makes me wonder how they'd react to G.A. Romero's take on consumer culture.
chairmanwow1 6y ago
Staying off of Twitter and leaving the Bay are my two countermoves against it. Principled discussion only please.
userbinator 6y ago
Back in... saner times, there was a saying: "don't feed the trolls". Unfortunately it seems people have been doing that far too often, and now they have grown big and strong.
- mekkkkkk 6y ago
  Nowadays it seems that "trolls are free outrage fuel" is more apt. How else would we power our tribalism generators?
tester34 6y ago
>I don't like this fake-wokism SV monoculture creeping into everything We too Probably get thick skin advice is offensive nowadays

SilverRed 6y ago

>It makes me overreact. I don't like it I think a lot of people are feeling this and its probably what is pushing people in to extreme ideologies. You start off getting pissed off at actions like this and then you slowly gravitate as far away from these people as possible. Honestly I think public social media entirely is a bad experiment and probably needs to be stopped. It used to be that you would know your audience and make jokes to suit, some people are more sensitive to certain things but you would know this and avoid otherwise fine jokes. But now on the internet the audience is literally everyone so you are always going to step on someones toes. Even by something as tame as a rant on encrypted saves and IAPs.

um_ya 6y ago
The medium of exchange has transitioned from smaller local groups to larger groups. It's like a group of people all screaming in a room trying to talk over one another. The only voices that stand out are the most outrageous ones. Large group forums have less depth. You can see this on websites like Reddit, where the most popular subreddits are reactionary and shallow, while smaller ones have more depth, ideas, and conversation.
- jkeat 6y ago
  I think you can see it in this thread, too, where many people are aghast at the maintainers' decision to remove the piece and citing it as evidence that jokes aren't allowed on the internet anymore.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

DubiousPusher 6y ago

And at the same time, widespread rejection of certain things people do and say is a critical part of changing popular ethics. I'm not saying I agree with every contemporary expression of wokeness. But we have made some progress in part because when someone said something "offensive" to their coworker or acuiantance the offended party told that person to stop. When people stop going along with things is when what is acceptable begins to change. Unfortunately, public shaming and ostricism seems to be a fundamental part of evolving social mortality.

PurpleFoxy 6y ago
No one would think twice if this document contained something truely offensive or hateful and the maintainers refused to remove it. But the fact is people have taken this so far to the point that it’s not a means to an end, it’s a hobby. And now we have harmless jokes being taken down.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Also, the piece that got taken down is a piece that essentially mocks morally bankrupt companies for abusing people. That's about as opposite for what the woke thing stands for (or at least is supposed to) as you can get.
  - DubiousPusher 6y ago
    Yeah, I'm not citing this circumstance as a quality case. But the OP connected this to the general wokeness narrative. And while I have very ambivalent feelings about the current rash of performative indignation, I think it's important to point out that such pearl clutching and scandal is not new and has functioned to change society in ways most people probably agree with (i.e. the decline of tacit sexual harassment and casual racism).
wott 6y ago
> But we have made some progress in part because when someone said something "offensive" to their coworker or acuiantance the offended party told that person to stop. It has been a while since last time it was the actual offended party who complained. Nowadays, people who complain are people who pretend to be offended in the name of other people who, in the mind of the first ones, could be offended.

cycloptic 6y ago

There's a lot to unpack here and I'm feeling very confused as to what you're talking about. Godot is not a major corporation, and you seem to be dismissing someone's complaint as "fake-wokism" and "professionally oppressed" when the joke in question is very clearly made at the expense of a certain group of people (mobile game players). What is fake or contrived about this if you're in that group and don't like being the butt of these jokes as is happening here? I personally can see why someone would be offended by such cynical and condescending statements, even though I am not in that group. Also you're saying their opinions have "teeth" as if making a complaint is some kind of attack on something because it could potentially cause a change to happen, but if you take that view then what is the point of giving feedback if you know it won't be acted on? If you find yourself overreacting to someone else expressing their opinion, perhaps that is another opportunity to expand your viewpoint, instead of overreacting?

iamcreasy 6y ago
> What is fake or contrived about this if you're in that group and don't like being the butt of these jokes as is happening here? I think what OP is saying is accepting the difference and moving on is also a valid option.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  That isn't really a valid option though, if this kind of thing is in the official documentation, and you have to read it in order to use that particular feature. It would be there every time you have to refer back to the documentation or refer someone else to it.
bitcharmer 6y ago
> the joke in question is very clearly made at the expense of a certain group of people Have you ever been to a comedy club or watched a stand-up comedian perform? If everyone took your stance most jokes would be banned because you can always argue that they are at the expense of some group.
- 6y ago

orthecreedence 6y ago

> twitter thread that started this Jesus can we just burn Twitter to the ground already? What a wasteland of morons with useless opinions it is.

DarkCrusader2 6y ago
I don't think the problem is with twitter here. Let people have opinions, even if you think they are useless. They are opinions after all. Your issue should be with the maintainers who will remove any content on the slightest objection to it in a bid to do the "right" thing by whatever group of people got offended by it.
- meheleventyone 6y ago
  I mean the whole thing is a total non-issue. Someone writes a silly screed in docs, someone notices it and points it out, maintainers of a project that wants some semblance of professionalism remove dumb screed. As a maintainer I wouldn’t even remove it for content but just because it’s clearly a detriment to the document.
- tremon 6y ago
  Aren't you engaging in victim-blaming here? Shouldn't you be blaming the mob, not the individual maintainer giving in to the mob?
  - bondarchuk 6y ago
    I think we should be blaming anyone who complies with the mob, since that is the only thing that gives the mob power. If everyone just ignored them, this phenomenon would peter out quite fast.
    - rcxdude 6y ago
      Don't underestimate the power of a mob, even an internet mob. They can and have done a lot of damage to people, even those who don't directly engage with them (especially when they attack those who don't have a lot of individual power: ironically while those who participate in them seem to have a sense of 'punching up', they can only hurt those for which they are as a collective punching down).

iFreilicht 6y ago

What surprises me the most is that in all the controversy, nobody tried to interpret the text as what it clearly was; a criticism of practices in mobile game development. Instead, they got offended by the very thing the text was crticising, which is viewing the players of mobile games as a lower class of human that can and therefore must be milked for cash. It feels like the whole controversy is just a misunderstanding of two groups having the same idea, but wording it differently.

sfg 6y ago
Yeah, after reading the deleted text I couldn't understand the controversy, so I read some of that Twitter thread. They clearly had not understood what they had read, having missed all nuance as they made their very literal interpretation of the piece. It was bizarre to see them zoom in on little details, such as picking apart 'we/us' vs 'they/their', whilst missing the entirety of what was going on in the text (including why 'they/their' were used). I guess, it isn't really their fault. Nobody chooses to misunderstand something(do they?). I just wish it had not led to the destruction of something interesting, but if it hadn't, then I would probably never have seen the deleted text; so, maybe, I should be thankful they brought it to my attention, even while wishing someone could have explained the text to them; or, at least, managed to convince them that sometimes it is best to ignore something you don't like, rather than go to war.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Nobody chooses to misunderstand something No - but people who write sarcastic or satirical things are deliberately choosing to make themselves more likely to be misunderstood. Why would you do that?
  - sfg 6y ago
    Some things are communicated outside of the surface level of literal text that cannot be communicated within it. Even if they could be, some people enjoy nuance and complexity and think they are worthwhile for their own sake. But really, this can't be explained in this fashion (and in this is the explanation...). Go look at a painting, read some poetry, listen to some music, enjoy a conversation with some friends, and ponder an interesting idea, and after all that reflect upon what you have experienced, and then, maybe, you'll be enlightened.

oap_bram 6y ago

I've had a conversation with this person on Twitter as well, and immediately blocked me for not being "good faith" while she casually throws around terms like "dirtbag left" and "those East Block country devs are caustic". I'm all for a more inclusive community, but spewing toxicity against a certain political ideology and using classicism in the process makes you a bigger problem than the piece itself imho.

spiralx 6y ago
The "dirtbag left" is a particular segment of leftist podcasters who called themselves that e.g. the hosts of the Chapo Trap House podcast. The other statement seems toxic however.
- junke 6y ago
  The other statement is not a direct quotation.
majjgepolja 6y ago
Twitter is officially 4chan now.
junke 6y ago
You can't in good faith use quotation marks when the quoted thing was not said. The "dirtbag left" comment was already quoted, not written as-is, and the other tweet said: "I’ve seen some impressively caustic stuff from that area at times." Also you and other in this threads seem determined to use them as a scapegoat for all that happens around this joke.
cryptoquick 6y ago
Wow, what a toxic person. I think counterculture is an important part of the tech community, and for this to be removed is... Saddening.

majjgepolja 6y ago

The thread is everything that's wrong with Twitter.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

nivenkos 6y ago

This is sad, there is no free expression anymore. You can't have any jokes or sarcasm in code comments, between colleagues or in documentation. Everything must be soulless and sterile. Just churn out your work as an appendage to the machine, with no culture or expression.

k__ 6y ago

"I don't like this fake-wokism SV monoculture creeping into everything" At least, it's replacing the awkward dudebro monoculture that crept into everything.

andrewprock 6y ago

Reading that, it makes me wonder how they'd react to G.A. Romero's take on consumer culture.

chairmanwow1 6y ago

Staying off of Twitter and leaving the Bay are my two countermoves against it. Principled discussion only please.

userbinator 6y ago

Back in... saner times, there was a saying: "don't feed the trolls". Unfortunately it seems people have been doing that far too often, and now they have grown big and strong.

mekkkkkk 6y ago
Nowadays it seems that "trolls are free outrage fuel" is more apt. How else would we power our tribalism generators?

tester34 6y ago

>I don't like this fake-wokism SV monoculture creeping into everything We too Probably get thick skin advice is offensive nowadays