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A lot of people rightly criticize TSA security theatre too. But at least the TSA is organized to prevent harms like terrorism, as opposed to harms like someone

A lot of people rightly criticize TSA security theatre too. But at least the TSA is organized to prevent harms like terrorism, as opposed to harms like someone stealing an iPhone.

gwright 6y ago
I don't understand this idea that theft isn't a harm worth worrying about. Sure, it isn't the same thing as blowing people up but surely that isn't where we want to draw the line, right?
- iujjkfjdkkdkf 6y ago
  I dont think anybody's arguing whether companies should worry about theft. My earlier comment was that companies should not be using their concern about theft as justification for treating their employees like criminals, and subjecting them to bag searches.
  - paultopia 6y ago
    Exactly this. Theft is bad, but it is disproportionate to subject employees to this kind of indignity (and even worse to fight being asked to pay them for the time they spend waiting for it) to avert the risk of petty theft. As with any claims of disproportion, one might disagree with the relative weighing. I assume we all agree that it would be unjustified for, eg., ordinary offices to cavity search every employee to make sure they aren't sneaking out company post-its. I assume we also all agree that it is justified for the CIA to search people when they come out of a SCIF. My only claim was that in the in between range, Apple store employee searches are less justifiable than TSA, because stealing an iPhone is lots lots lots lots less bad than terrorism (albeit obviously much more likely).
    - gwright 6y ago
      I accept that I work in a world in which not everyone is trustworthy and sometimes that means that I'm subject to verification procedures. What reason is there to feel indignant about that? The existence of controls is not at all the same thing as being accused of committing a crime. Should a convenience store clerk be indignant that their cash drawer has to balance out at the end of their shift? Should a bookkeeper be indignant that cash handling controls are enforced? I realize that controls can be excessive but that is different than being indignant that there are controls at all. (Just to be clear, the issue of being paid for the time associated with controls is really something entirely different than objecting to the controls themselves)
      - paultopia 6y ago
        Yeah, at a certain point the controls themselves are objectionable. There's room for debate about what that point is, but, sometimes treating people like you distrust them is rightfully offensive. Suppose that a church counted the cash in everyone's wallet on the way in and again on the way out to make sure they weren't stealing from the collection plate, for example? We'd find that highly offensive, because it would imply that the parishioners weren't to be trusted.

A lot of people rightly criticize TSA security theatre too. But at least the TSA is organized to prevent harms like terrorism, as opposed to harms like someone stealing an iPhone.

gwright 6y ago

I don't understand this idea that theft isn't a harm worth worrying about. Sure, it isn't the same thing as blowing people up but surely that isn't where we want to draw the line, right?

iujjkfjdkkdkf 6y ago
I dont think anybody's arguing whether companies should worry about theft. My earlier comment was that companies should not be using their concern about theft as justification for treating their employees like criminals, and subjecting them to bag searches.
- paultopia 6y ago
  Exactly this. Theft is bad, but it is disproportionate to subject employees to this kind of indignity (and even worse to fight being asked to pay them for the time they spend waiting for it) to avert the risk of petty theft. As with any claims of disproportion, one might disagree with the relative weighing. I assume we all agree that it would be unjustified for, eg., ordinary offices to cavity search every employee to make sure they aren't sneaking out company post-its. I assume we also all agree that it is justified for the CIA to search people when they come out of a SCIF. My only claim was that in the in between range, Apple store employee searches are less justifiable than TSA, because stealing an iPhone is lots lots lots lots less bad than terrorism (albeit obviously much more likely).
  - gwright 6y ago
    I accept that I work in a world in which not everyone is trustworthy and sometimes that means that I'm subject to verification procedures. What reason is there to feel indignant about that? The existence of controls is not at all the same thing as being accused of committing a crime. Should a convenience store clerk be indignant that their cash drawer has to balance out at the end of their shift? Should a bookkeeper be indignant that cash handling controls are enforced? I realize that controls can be excessive but that is different than being indignant that there are controls at all. (Just to be clear, the issue of being paid for the time associated with controls is really something entirely different than objecting to the controls themselves)
    - paultopia 6y ago
      Yeah, at a certain point the controls themselves are objectionable. There's room for debate about what that point is, but, sometimes treating people like you distrust them is rightfully offensive. Suppose that a church counted the cash in everyone's wallet on the way in and again on the way out to make sure they weren't stealing from the collection plate, for example? We'd find that highly offensive, because it would imply that the parishioners weren't to be trusted.