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> and then you look over the return, make any modifications you believe are correct, and send it to them Or more likely, they send you their estimate, based on

by yunesj 6y ago

> and then you look over the return, make any modifications you believe are correct, and send it to them Or more likely, they send you their estimate, based on a tiny fraction of the tax code, you recalculate it from scratch, send it to them, and then they audit you. Civil disagreements with the IRS start under the assumption that the IRS is correct (e.g., “your cost basis is zero,” or “that wasn’t a valid deduction”), and then you must prove to them that they are wrong.

kennywinker 6y ago
Again you're describing something very different from what is being suggested - and this is not a weird experimental theory - MANY countries have deeply complex tax codes and have also implemented an auto-file system where LARGE portions of the population can file in minutes due to a pre-filled return. I've yet to hear any stories where anything like your nightmare scenario has actually happened. Perhaps you would not be part of the group who could rely on a pre-filled return - and you would still have to file manually, but nobody is proposing taking that option away or even making it harder than it already is.
- yunesj 6y ago
  > Many countries have deeply complex tax codes. Can you give an example of any country whose tax code is more than 70k pages long? Or a country where it requires, by default, taxes paid on money earned while living oversees, depending on a large number of international treaties, case law, and expensive private letter rulings? Or a country that requires you to file a different tax return in almost every state you step your foot in while working remotely? Or a country that requires you to essentially recalculate taxes on a quarterly basis to determine if you should be fined for underpaying estimated taxes? > nightmare scenario That’s not a nightmare scenario. That’s just a standard audit. They assume, e.g., zero coat basis, or residency, or it wasn’t used for business, or ... and you have to prove otherwise.
  - kennywinker 6y ago
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/29/15109214/tax-code-page-count-complexity-simplification-reform-ways-means https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/29/15109214/t... > As of 2014, the tax code was only about 2,600 pages long The usa hardly has a monopoly on tax code complexity. We're talking about personal income tax right now and I can't find a complexity index for that, but for business taxes the usa ranks fairly low on https://www.taxcomplexity.org/ https://www.taxcomplexity.org/ > That’s not a nightmare scenario. That’s just a standard audit. The "nightmare" scenario was "you recalculate it from scratch, send it to them, and then they audit you." - a scenario you put forward where this improvement to the tax code (auto-filled returns) results in a world where any time your return isn't what they auto-filled you get audited. That sounds bad, but has not happened anywhere where auto-filled returns have been implemented.
    - yunesj 6y ago
      > the tax code was only 2,600 pages - Vox > “a tax practitioner who relies just on the tax statutes will go to jail” - Tax Foundation https://taxfoundation.org/how-many-words-are-tax-code/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-many-words-are-tax-code/ > nightmare scenario has not happened anywhere I’d be surprised to learn that any country had zero audits, because their file-free tax system worked for everyone. Is that the case anywhere?

by yunesj 6y ago

kennywinker 6y ago

Again you're describing something very different from what is being suggested - and this is not a weird experimental theory - MANY countries have deeply complex tax codes and have also implemented an auto-file system where LARGE portions of the population can file in minutes due to a pre-filled return. I've yet to hear any stories where anything like your nightmare scenario has actually happened. Perhaps you would not be part of the group who could rely on a pre-filled return - and you would still have to file manually, but nobody is proposing taking that option away or even making it harder than it already is.

yunesj 6y ago
> Many countries have deeply complex tax codes. Can you give an example of any country whose tax code is more than 70k pages long? Or a country where it requires, by default, taxes paid on money earned while living oversees, depending on a large number of international treaties, case law, and expensive private letter rulings? Or a country that requires you to file a different tax return in almost every state you step your foot in while working remotely? Or a country that requires you to essentially recalculate taxes on a quarterly basis to determine if you should be fined for underpaying estimated taxes? > nightmare scenario That’s not a nightmare scenario. That’s just a standard audit. They assume, e.g., zero coat basis, or residency, or it wasn’t used for business, or ... and you have to prove otherwise.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/29/15109214/tax-code-page-count-complexity-simplification-reform-ways-means https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/29/15109214/t... > As of 2014, the tax code was only about 2,600 pages long The usa hardly has a monopoly on tax code complexity. We're talking about personal income tax right now and I can't find a complexity index for that, but for business taxes the usa ranks fairly low on https://www.taxcomplexity.org/ https://www.taxcomplexity.org/ > That’s not a nightmare scenario. That’s just a standard audit. The "nightmare" scenario was "you recalculate it from scratch, send it to them, and then they audit you." - a scenario you put forward where this improvement to the tax code (auto-filled returns) results in a world where any time your return isn't what they auto-filled you get audited. That sounds bad, but has not happened anywhere where auto-filled returns have been implemented.
  - yunesj 6y ago
    > the tax code was only 2,600 pages - Vox > “a tax practitioner who relies just on the tax statutes will go to jail” - Tax Foundation https://taxfoundation.org/how-many-words-are-tax-code/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-many-words-are-tax-code/ > nightmare scenario has not happened anywhere I’d be surprised to learn that any country had zero audits, because their file-free tax system worked for everyone. Is that the case anywhere?