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I agree with you that attraction is a multi-dimensional process which is very poorly captured by online dating. What I am trying to explain is mine and others'

I agree with you that attraction is a multi-dimensional process which is very poorly captured by online dating. What I am trying to explain is mine and others' observations that men who don't succeed at present-day online dating , that would have succeeded at real-life dating in the past, are not succeeding today in real life. I am blaming online dating and social media for this phenomena, and attempting to use that rationale as an explanation for why the percent share of sexless men has grown from 18% to 30%, as indicated by the linked study. Have you seen these "conventionally unattractive" men that you describe succeed in a totally open and free dating market as young 20-somethings, or are there extenuating circumstances (early 30s, string of failed relationships, etc.). I will fully admit that you are observing something I am not observing and that my rationale must be flawed if you're witnessing 5'4" nerdy, goofy men lacking in charisma and stature experience consistent success in real life dating between 18-26. Of those I saw who did achieve some success, I've witnessed a lot of them get cheated on by their "girlfriends", but I haven't witnessed a lot of them experience free-market success and dating freedom of choice, at least not compared to the 6' high-power athletes I know. I disagree with you on a few other counts here, but most strongly with the statement "dating will emerge naturally as you get better at making friends". That is patently false. Dating will emerge naturally as the peer-relative superior status of your reproductive and companionship potential becomes obvious. Dating is not a process by which to make friends, it is a process to determine who will have a chance at impregnating whom. "Getting better at making friends" will net you a fraction of the returns that "getting muscles that show through a t-shirt" will, all other things being considered equal. Overall, I do agree with you that men who fail on dating apps need to try different approaches in real life, though.

testfoobar 6y ago
There is also the generational drop in testosterone that has been discussed here on HN. This may explain some portion of the rising numbers of men not getting sex. If by open-and-free dating markets of 20-somethings you mean places like bars in the Marina or the party scene of Isla Vista. You are correct, to succeed there you have to be conventionally attractive. In the low light and hormone fueled club scene of Miami, even more so. Status, social proof, money...it matters. But there are many other places to find great partners. My 5'4" friend is a musician. Girls approached him. He has done well over the years. Other successful guys I know sail, scuba-dive, rock-climb, ski, fly, hike, surf, etc. Each of these activities has its own social scene with interesting people. My statement about dating and friends was inaccurate. I actually agree with you: dating =/= friendship. It has been been my observation that my struggling single friends didn't know how to be social. I encouraged them to befriend people and learn about themselves. An example of what I meant by "dating emerges..." my friends who sail will periodically send out open invitations to get 5-10 people together for a day of sailing. The goal is to invite fun interesting people. By being friends with social people, you get exposed to more people. People click in person. Another friend regularly rents big houses for ski weekends - again with the goal of pulling interesting people together. Regarding muscles: agree. Fitness improves everyone's chances in everything. I encourage all of my single friends to be physically active and fit.
swat535 6y ago
I agree with the OP on this one at least speaking personally I'm fairly average and not even that tall (~5'6) and I've never had issues dating. You are right on point that given a choice, most women would most likely rather date a 6'ft tall Brad Pitt however that choice is not always present for them and different women prioritize different things, you can't just lump them all in a single category.. Further attractiveness is only one of _many_ factors that they look at when making a selection and most of them will gladly compromise if you have other higher qualities. Stability, financial security, appearances, social network, education , interests,.. all come in to play. Basically, what I'm saying is that dating & relationships are a lot more complex than they seem.

testfoobar 6y ago

There is also the generational drop in testosterone that has been discussed here on HN. This may explain some portion of the rising numbers of men not getting sex. If by open-and-free dating markets of 20-somethings you mean places like bars in the Marina or the party scene of Isla Vista. You are correct, to succeed there you have to be conventionally attractive. In the low light and hormone fueled club scene of Miami, even more so. Status, social proof, money...it matters. But there are many other places to find great partners. My 5'4" friend is a musician. Girls approached him. He has done well over the years. Other successful guys I know sail, scuba-dive, rock-climb, ski, fly, hike, surf, etc. Each of these activities has its own social scene with interesting people. My statement about dating and friends was inaccurate. I actually agree with you: dating =/= friendship. It has been been my observation that my struggling single friends didn't know how to be social. I encouraged them to befriend people and learn about themselves. An example of what I meant by "dating emerges..." my friends who sail will periodically send out open invitations to get 5-10 people together for a day of sailing. The goal is to invite fun interesting people. By being friends with social people, you get exposed to more people. People click in person. Another friend regularly rents big houses for ski weekends - again with the goal of pulling interesting people together. Regarding muscles: agree. Fitness improves everyone's chances in everything. I encourage all of my single friends to be physically active and fit.

swat535 6y ago

I agree with the OP on this one at least speaking personally I'm fairly average and not even that tall (~5'6) and I've never had issues dating. You are right on point that given a choice, most women would most likely rather date a 6'ft tall Brad Pitt however that choice is not always present for them and different women prioritize different things, you can't just lump them all in a single category.. Further attractiveness is only one of _many_ factors that they look at when making a selection and most of them will gladly compromise if you have other higher qualities. Stability, financial security, appearances, social network, education , interests,.. all come in to play. Basically, what I'm saying is that dating & relationships are a lot more complex than they seem.