5 ms·
> can withstand a bigger fender bender. That may be 10x more important to customers than some theoretical optimum. Go actually look at the internal of a PHEV.
by nickik 6y ago
> can withstand a bigger fender bender. That may be 10x more important to customers than some theoretical optimum.
Go actually look at the internal of a PHEV. They have literally every single part of a BEV but also have many, many additional parts.
You actually end up with more parts that are single points of failures and more places where a impact can make the car not able to drive.
A properly integrated structural battery that are now coming to the market already is gone be much safer overall then a PHEV and very likely more robust as well.
> Batteries may not be as long lasting for customers that want their car to last 20 years (current expectations, barring getting run into). Exactly how long lasting on the road are the current batteries? Do we know what service costs they'll have compared to fuel cell service costs?
So far all indications are that battery perform very well. Not 20 years at max capacity, but still very usable after a lot of that time.
If you look at LFP batteries, you can already get 20 years with high retention.
Batteries are also getting better and cheaper with every generation.
The problem is, fuel cells have solved non of these problems. They have more parts to maintain overall. Fuel cells need to be replaced as or more often then batteries.
> Will they survive well in different climates/humidity/dust, etc?
There have been Tesla driving around the polar circle for 10 years now. EV are very popular in Norway.
Dust has and humidity are not an issue, the battery and motor are ceiled of. These things are far more likely to be issues for PHEV as for those you need to take air from the outside and filter it, to then react it in the fuel cell.
> Time to recharge is a lot more important than range.
First of all, most people will either charge at home, or at work. There will be charging in most places where you stop to top up.
If you are forced to go to a fast charging station, they are already filling up 80% of the battery in 20 min and next generation of battery are gone be considerably faster.
> Yes, there is cool new battery tech coming out.
Battery tech doesn't simply get invented and then sold in cars. If something goes into a car program it has gone threw years and years of testing already.
We already have good evidence that for example silicon loading improves the battery.
There are many such changes in the pipeline, and they wouldn't be considered if they were not cheaper and better.
> It makes perfect sense that Toyota is experimenting with lots of alt-drivetrains
There is a large amount of difference between 'experimenting' and having multiple billion $ program over 20+ years while totally neglecting the competing technology. And that is what Toyota has done.
> Ultimately the consumer is going to decide what they want to buy
Yes, and consumers so far have universally rejected PHEV unless massively insentivised to do so.
> And in the end, whatever gives the customer the most convenience, performance, affordability, and durability will win, and Toyota wants to win.
Toyota are the once pushing a technology that consumers are not demanding. Yet they continue to insist that it is 'the future' and their offering in EV are not very compelling as a result.
Every company wants to 'win' but that doesn't mean every company will.
I'm not saying Toyota is going bankrupt but you are simple making excuses. They have spend huge amount of money on the wrong horse and they have failed to invest the same on the right horse.
Not only that they have continually insisted that EV were terrible and hybrids were better. Not only that put publish a lot of misleading 'studies' trying to confuse consumers for their own interest.
- sharpneli 6y ago> There have been Tesla driving around the polar circle for 10 years now. EV are very popular in Norway. EV’s have zero car tax and zero VAT on Norway. That makes them cheaper than equivalent gas cars > Yes, and consumers so far have universally rejected PHEV unless massively insentivised to do so. Same with EV’s as shown above. They’re only massively popular if the price is right. It all comes down to it. In Finland PHEV sales are now higher than diesel sales iirc, which used to be super popular here. Due to how car tax works on models like Volvo the PHEV variant is cheaper than the gas variant, hence people select them. We don’t have no VAT like Norway has so BEV’s are still very expensive here. Personally I do like emissions based taxation a lot. No need to complain about people not buying them as they will buy if the price is correct vs alternatives. As a sidenote Toyota has announced an EV. Sure it’s bit after others but not by that much. Also they’re increasing the amount of PHEV’s. As they already have a good hybrid tech one just needs to slap a bigger battery and it’s done. And as batteries weigh a lot the weight of PHEV with it’s ICE and whatnot is around the same as BEV. See Rav4 PHEV as a good example.
- nickik 6y ago> EV’s have zero car tax and zero VAT on Norway. That makes them cheaper than equivalent gas cars My point was that they clearly work fine in the cold. > Same with EV’s as shown above. They’re only massively popular if the price is right. It all comes down to it. No, its not at all the same. Tesla sell a lot in the US even outside of insentives. Often FCEV have the same intensives as EV and still don't sell at all. Sorry I mixed up PHEV and FCEV. Our dicussions is about FCEV but I wrote PHEV, that is just a hybrid with a plug. > Personally I do like emissions based taxation a lot. The problem with that is that emissions from the gird a not always the same, and the same for FCEV. Also, for PHEV the emissions are often understated.
- sharpneli 6y ago> No, its not at all the same. Tesla sell a lot in the US even outside of insentives. Not much. This comparison includes apparently also plugin hybrids (So BEV and PHEV combined) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country Out of all new cars 1.9% were plugins in US in 2020 18.1% were plugins in Finland. 74.7% in Norway. And they were not full EV's over here. Only less than 2% is full EV here (which is still more than what's sold in US). The majority is basic family movers like Volkswagen Passats and whatnot that allow daily driving to work with electricity and then for summer cabin one can go with gas. I do understand why consumers are not enthusiastic about them in US. As in some cases it can be cheaper to just go with gas than use electricity. Over here its overwhelmingly cheaper to drive with electricity. As an example the RAV4 PHEV costs around 30-50% to drive using the EV mode instead of fueling using the average price of household electricity here. > Sorry I mixed up PHEV and FCEV. Our dicussions is about FCEV but I wrote PHEV, that is just a hybrid with a plug. Yeah FCEV's have a hard time going forwards. Unlike plug cars that can be charged at home with FCEV the full chicken and egg problem in refueling is there. Perhaps someday, but in general overcoming those problems is really really hard. > Also, for PHEV the emissions are often understated. Yeah. Especially when there is no significant savings with charging. As gas costs closer to $8 per gallon over here actually charging is far more common. It's so much cheaper to drive with the battery than by using gas. It's basically all about economics. Make it cheaper and people will buy. Expensive status symbols only go so far.