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China really is more like fascism than Marxism in my opinion. I occasionally follow some communists on Twitter, and they are surprisingly pro-China even though

China really is more like fascism than Marxism in my opinion. I occasionally follow some communists on Twitter, and they are surprisingly pro-China even though China is a far cry from their Marxist ideals.

fallingfrog 6y ago
It really is. I was just recently reading that the Chinese government is actually having a big problem with young people taking communism seriously and starting to ask questions about the massive sweatshops and inequality in the country, which are not things that are supposed to happen with the communist party in charge.
gbfnbkbddf 6y ago
Communism in practice is just fascism with a Marxish State-enforced ideology
throwaway894345 6y ago
It’s very interesting to me how often communism ends up looking like fascism, and yet many people are very open and tolerant of the former while absolutely petrified of the latter. Violent authoritarians concern me in general, and I take little comfort in them being left-wing, rather than right-wing, authoritarians. EDIT: Lots of downvotes and no rebuttals. Looks like I inadvertently struck a nerve.
- kggbcsehn 6y ago
  Communism is cloaked in false promises and the US has failed to teach the youth this, so they are attracted to the lies that sell the ideology. You can also thank Bernie Sanders and AOC for repairing the brand of socialism with their incredibly harmful rhetoric
  - fallingfrog 6y ago
    Yes, we all know that asking for health care is the same as opening up gulags. Jee whiz..
    - utgbhnb 6y ago
      You don't understand, Bernie is the one saying health care is socialism. Obviously medicare for all isn't socialism, but Bernie is selling it as socialism and now the youths want actual socialism because they think Socialism is just free healthcare See how that makes the word "socialist" which should cause a liberal to recoil similarly to "Nazi" sound safer? And don't forget Bernie supported Chavez, so it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing. He's intentionally revitalizing the brand of socialism with stuff like healthcare (as many communist revolutionaries like Castro have done historically, they always promise free healthcare) to pave the way for the Chavez style Socialism he has always expressed admiration for
      - refenestrator 6y ago
        Easy solution: do medicare for all with lots of pictures of eagles, apple pies and stuff.
      - edbob 6y ago
        Reading some speeches by Mao helped me to understand the meaning of "socialism" better. Communism is just the end goal that can only be achieved once humanity is "perfected". Socialism is the means of perfecting humanity in order to eventually achieve communism. We call it Communist China, but it never achieved communism in this sense and was always merely socialist, even under Mao. This article is similar to how Mao described communism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society If it helps anyone, communism is an eschatological state similar to the "New Heaven and New Earth" of Christianity, while socialism is the prelude to it, the "Thousand-Year Reign" of Christ.
        throwaway894345 6y ago
        I've heard some devout communists echo this, but I wonder if this is the political science definition or if someone created a new definition in order to move the goalposts. With respect to the standard PoliSci definition, I recall being taught that Communism is "the public owns everything" and Socialism is "the state owns everything", and I'm still not super clear on what the difference is. Assuming what I was taught was actually correct, what does it mean for the public to own something in a way that is distinct from state ownership?
  - soco 6y ago
    You have a very valid point in the first paragraph, and the second by mixing communism with socialism actually underlines the first one even better. I think US and not only (hello France or Italy) are constantly failing to properly educate people by identifying and naming all those currents. Clumping them together to better vilify them only makes them more attractive for the inevitable rebels.
- soco 6y ago
  I don't think people are that open to communism. Rather, they are open to that utopia the communism-by-the-book is trying to sell. In the end this nuance is irrelevant because all the real-world communisms we ever had are (and were) rather dystopian, yet somehow still managing to sell themselves to the utopists. Maybe because people believe what they want to believe?
Chris2048 6y ago
I think the narrative that fascism and communism are "opposite ends" of some relevant spectrum are flawed. I also disagree that historically "communist" countries are truly communist/socialist, when they often maintained they lived up to certain ideals that they didn't - where does Marx promote purges, for example? Those nations are no more left/liberal than the Nazi party is socialist.
- kggbcsehn 6y ago
  Yeah they're the same ruling structure, the only difference is that Communism enforces a Marx-like or Marx-derived ideology as the only allowed belief system and fascism doesn't have a well defined ideology, it's just used as another word for authoritarian. Fascism honestly doesn't even have a great definition outside of historical fascism

fallingfrog 6y ago

It really is. I was just recently reading that the Chinese government is actually having a big problem with young people taking communism seriously and starting to ask questions about the massive sweatshops and inequality in the country, which are not things that are supposed to happen with the communist party in charge.

gbfnbkbddf 6y ago

Communism in practice is just fascism with a Marxish State-enforced ideology

throwaway894345 6y ago

It’s very interesting to me how often communism ends up looking like fascism, and yet many people are very open and tolerant of the former while absolutely petrified of the latter. Violent authoritarians concern me in general, and I take little comfort in them being left-wing, rather than right-wing, authoritarians. EDIT: Lots of downvotes and no rebuttals. Looks like I inadvertently struck a nerve.

kggbcsehn 6y ago
Communism is cloaked in false promises and the US has failed to teach the youth this, so they are attracted to the lies that sell the ideology. You can also thank Bernie Sanders and AOC for repairing the brand of socialism with their incredibly harmful rhetoric
- fallingfrog 6y ago
  Yes, we all know that asking for health care is the same as opening up gulags. Jee whiz..
  - utgbhnb 6y ago
    You don't understand, Bernie is the one saying health care is socialism. Obviously medicare for all isn't socialism, but Bernie is selling it as socialism and now the youths want actual socialism because they think Socialism is just free healthcare See how that makes the word "socialist" which should cause a liberal to recoil similarly to "Nazi" sound safer? And don't forget Bernie supported Chavez, so it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing. He's intentionally revitalizing the brand of socialism with stuff like healthcare (as many communist revolutionaries like Castro have done historically, they always promise free healthcare) to pave the way for the Chavez style Socialism he has always expressed admiration for
    - refenestrator 6y ago
      Easy solution: do medicare for all with lots of pictures of eagles, apple pies and stuff.
    - edbob 6y ago
      Reading some speeches by Mao helped me to understand the meaning of "socialism" better. Communism is just the end goal that can only be achieved once humanity is "perfected". Socialism is the means of perfecting humanity in order to eventually achieve communism. We call it Communist China, but it never achieved communism in this sense and was always merely socialist, even under Mao. This article is similar to how Mao described communism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society If it helps anyone, communism is an eschatological state similar to the "New Heaven and New Earth" of Christianity, while socialism is the prelude to it, the "Thousand-Year Reign" of Christ.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        I've heard some devout communists echo this, but I wonder if this is the political science definition or if someone created a new definition in order to move the goalposts. With respect to the standard PoliSci definition, I recall being taught that Communism is "the public owns everything" and Socialism is "the state owns everything", and I'm still not super clear on what the difference is. Assuming what I was taught was actually correct, what does it mean for the public to own something in a way that is distinct from state ownership?
- soco 6y ago
  You have a very valid point in the first paragraph, and the second by mixing communism with socialism actually underlines the first one even better. I think US and not only (hello France or Italy) are constantly failing to properly educate people by identifying and naming all those currents. Clumping them together to better vilify them only makes them more attractive for the inevitable rebels.
soco 6y ago
I don't think people are that open to communism. Rather, they are open to that utopia the communism-by-the-book is trying to sell. In the end this nuance is irrelevant because all the real-world communisms we ever had are (and were) rather dystopian, yet somehow still managing to sell themselves to the utopists. Maybe because people believe what they want to believe?

Chris2048 6y ago

I think the narrative that fascism and communism are "opposite ends" of some relevant spectrum are flawed. I also disagree that historically "communist" countries are truly communist/socialist, when they often maintained they lived up to certain ideals that they didn't - where does Marx promote purges, for example? Those nations are no more left/liberal than the Nazi party is socialist.

kggbcsehn 6y ago
Yeah they're the same ruling structure, the only difference is that Communism enforces a Marx-like or Marx-derived ideology as the only allowed belief system and fascism doesn't have a well defined ideology, it's just used as another word for authoritarian. Fascism honestly doesn't even have a great definition outside of historical fascism