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There are cars that charge up to 350KW but that's not realistic for large scale deployments since the infrastructure development doesn't seem poised to keep up

There are cars that charge up to 350KW but that's not realistic for large scale deployments since the infrastructure development doesn't seem poised to keep up with the EV purchase boom. A gas station can easily service 20 cars simultaneously every couple of minutes. Charging 20 cars at 150-350KW for every charging station brings us to some mind boggling numbers today. EV will have to be able to do both though. Slow charge for constant parking charging - one charger for every parking spot, and quick charging at dedicated stations which would presumably be equipped with everything needed to cover the potentially huge demand.

Tade0 6y ago
Charging 20 cars at 150-350KW for every charging station brings us to some mind boggling numbers today. That's as much as seven electric locomotives at maximum - many more are currently in motion all around Europe, China and Japan. It's a problem, but a solvable one. The technology is here, and is much cheaper than an equivalent hydrogen infrastructure.
- buran77 6y ago
  Almost every problem is solvable if you throw enough money at it. My point isn't that we're stuck with an unsolvable situation but that EV manufacturers are driving up sales faster than they, governments, or other companies are building the infrastructure to support them. There are 1.2bn cars on the road, even a fraction of that fast charging is a higher load than anything we regularly do now. And that's on top of what we already consume. Imagine just 5 locomotives running at maximum in close to every gas station today and you'll visualize the magnitude. And all that is a problem only as far as people planning today under the assumption that they can just quick charge in 15min and it can only get faster. But they ignore the aspect of scaling. We are nowhere near providing quick charge capability as people imagine when they make such assumptions. And we won't be in 2030 either, when many manufacturers decided to have a fully electric fleet. Which isn't to say that we should stop buying EVs, we should just stop making unrealistic assumptions under best case conditions when planning or comparing tech. It's the kind of assumption people get wrong even when thinking of household items like an electric stove. If each element is 2.5-3KW the assumption is they'll operate at that level even when running together. Then they scratch their head when the food just doesn't seem to get cooked as fast as they expected all of a sudden. Scaling up never comes to mind. As for hydrogen, the best business case for it probably does not overlap the one for BEVs. It should target everything batteries can't, as many other commenters here pointed out. Some public transport operators are building as we speak fleets of fuel cell trains (to the tune of hundreds of millions) because overhead lines are missing in many areas they service and the alternative is diesel. There's a case to be made for quick "diesel like" refueling especially when in the hands of organized operators.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    The unrealistic assumption remains that fast charging would be the default when all the cars on the road are electric simply because the status quo with ICE is "fast charging" (once a week or fortnight; people also tend to forget that not all cars "fast charge" at once with ICE either). Slow/trickle charging is a real paradigm shift versus the status quo. More and more evidence continues to mount that fast charging is by far a small exception in BEV ownership over steady usage patterns of trickle charging.
    - buran77 6y ago
      Exactly. People have to wrap their heads around the fact that "fueling" a BEV will not follow the same philosophy as fueling an ICE. And it shouldn't, it should play to the strengths of BEVs. They can be charged anywhere, at home or on the street, you can even "produce the fuel" at home if needed. So as long as you can install a charger in every possible (legal) parking spot a BEV can stay more or less constantly charged. Quick charge might be reserved for when you really need to be quick about it. Or maybe some more advanced battery swap tech and process. And charging stations will probably not reach gas stations level of efficiency any time soon, certainly not by the time most manufacturers go for BEV only fleets. The point isn't that "all cars fast charge at once" but that today any one of the dozens of gas stations in any city will serve multiple customers at once and offer a hefty range in a matter of minutes. The difference is even more visible if you go to more extreme situations, like a highway gas station in vacation season, where cars queue up to every one of the dozen pumps despite their substantially longer range. Again, none of these issues are insurmountable, they just require a lot of investments in infrastructure and a change in mentality. But whenever someone compares hydrogen to battery tech saying "BEVs can quick charge too" it's clear that they don't understand how things change at scale and what's the strong point of each tech.
- hcurtiss 6y ago
  But I think he's right that's a mind-boggling amount of power. Those are gigantic engines running full out.

Tade0 6y ago

Charging 20 cars at 150-350KW for every charging station brings us to some mind boggling numbers today. That's as much as seven electric locomotives at maximum - many more are currently in motion all around Europe, China and Japan. It's a problem, but a solvable one. The technology is here, and is much cheaper than an equivalent hydrogen infrastructure.

buran77 6y ago
Almost every problem is solvable if you throw enough money at it. My point isn't that we're stuck with an unsolvable situation but that EV manufacturers are driving up sales faster than they, governments, or other companies are building the infrastructure to support them. There are 1.2bn cars on the road, even a fraction of that fast charging is a higher load than anything we regularly do now. And that's on top of what we already consume. Imagine just 5 locomotives running at maximum in close to every gas station today and you'll visualize the magnitude. And all that is a problem only as far as people planning today under the assumption that they can just quick charge in 15min and it can only get faster. But they ignore the aspect of scaling. We are nowhere near providing quick charge capability as people imagine when they make such assumptions. And we won't be in 2030 either, when many manufacturers decided to have a fully electric fleet. Which isn't to say that we should stop buying EVs, we should just stop making unrealistic assumptions under best case conditions when planning or comparing tech. It's the kind of assumption people get wrong even when thinking of household items like an electric stove. If each element is 2.5-3KW the assumption is they'll operate at that level even when running together. Then they scratch their head when the food just doesn't seem to get cooked as fast as they expected all of a sudden. Scaling up never comes to mind. As for hydrogen, the best business case for it probably does not overlap the one for BEVs. It should target everything batteries can't, as many other commenters here pointed out. Some public transport operators are building as we speak fleets of fuel cell trains (to the tune of hundreds of millions) because overhead lines are missing in many areas they service and the alternative is diesel. There's a case to be made for quick "diesel like" refueling especially when in the hands of organized operators.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  The unrealistic assumption remains that fast charging would be the default when all the cars on the road are electric simply because the status quo with ICE is "fast charging" (once a week or fortnight; people also tend to forget that not all cars "fast charge" at once with ICE either). Slow/trickle charging is a real paradigm shift versus the status quo. More and more evidence continues to mount that fast charging is by far a small exception in BEV ownership over steady usage patterns of trickle charging.
  - buran77 6y ago
    Exactly. People have to wrap their heads around the fact that "fueling" a BEV will not follow the same philosophy as fueling an ICE. And it shouldn't, it should play to the strengths of BEVs. They can be charged anywhere, at home or on the street, you can even "produce the fuel" at home if needed. So as long as you can install a charger in every possible (legal) parking spot a BEV can stay more or less constantly charged. Quick charge might be reserved for when you really need to be quick about it. Or maybe some more advanced battery swap tech and process. And charging stations will probably not reach gas stations level of efficiency any time soon, certainly not by the time most manufacturers go for BEV only fleets. The point isn't that "all cars fast charge at once" but that today any one of the dozens of gas stations in any city will serve multiple customers at once and offer a hefty range in a matter of minutes. The difference is even more visible if you go to more extreme situations, like a highway gas station in vacation season, where cars queue up to every one of the dozen pumps despite their substantially longer range. Again, none of these issues are insurmountable, they just require a lot of investments in infrastructure and a change in mentality. But whenever someone compares hydrogen to battery tech saying "BEVs can quick charge too" it's clear that they don't understand how things change at scale and what's the strong point of each tech.
hcurtiss 6y ago
But I think he's right that's a mind-boggling amount of power. Those are gigantic engines running full out.