7 ms·

There's definitely a non-zero chance of the Wuhan Institute of Virology being involved somehow, but unless there's actual evidence to support the claim, it's ju

There's definitely a non-zero chance of the Wuhan Institute of Virology being involved somehow, but unless there's actual evidence to support the claim, it's just speculation. That being said, there's plenty of reasons to keep looking; if nothing else, it would be very nice to have solid evidence of the origin of the virus, regardless if it was from a wild bat or not.

reuben_scratton 6y ago
There is no direct evidence of zoonotic origin either. An entire year on and we don't even know the intermediate species, let alone where crossover occurred. With the original SARS this was worked out in a couple of weeks. Also I've yet to see any slightly convincing explanation as to why SARS-Cov-2 emerged from the wild spectacularly well-adapted to human ACE2.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  Is this lack of information in itself unusual enough to imply the origin is being covered up?
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  It took 15 years to find the origin of the original SARS, but indeed it took a few months to pinpoint the intermediary species (civets). Now I don't know about SARS but many people infected with SARS-Cov-2 have no symptoms or mild symptoms, which means the virus might circulate for a while before it hits a major population centre and blows up, which would make finding the source more difficult. They have already found virii in bats in Yunnan that are 96% similar to SARS-Cov-2 so it seems probable that the origin will be similar to the origin of SARS. Certainly the consensus is that the virus is natural despite you and others implying that it might not, which is nothing but FUD at this point. SARS origin: "Around late 2017, Chinese scientists traced the virus through the intermediary of Asian palm civets to cave-dwelling horseshoe bats in Xiyang Yi Ethnic Township, Yunnan" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndr...
throwawaysea 6y ago
How can we reasonably expect evidence when journalists were suppressed early on, domestic research into virus origins was censored/state controlled, and site visits from external organizations were prevented for an entire year? Clearly all of this is tampering with evidence and highly suspicious, and I feel like the label of “speculation” is misleading or missing context at best. Lab leaks are also not uncommon. There’s a reason why the Obama administration paused gain of function research - with risk of SARS research specifically called out - after numerous incidents (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/10/17/doing-diligence-assess-risks-and-benefits-life-sciences-gain-function-research https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/10/17/doing-d...). With SARS (the first one), there were literally multiple lab leaks from the Beijing institute of virology, including one leak tied to deaths (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death).
benlumen 6y ago
The issue here is that if it was related to the WIV, which, i'll be honest - common sense tells me is likely, then the evidence will never see the light of day - because of the Chinese regime. They honestly want us to believe that it was brought in on frozen fish at the market around the corner - that it never even originated in China. This is what we're dealing with. It's gaslighting in the extreme.
- reuben_scratton 6y ago
  This is why I feel the international community should somehow come together to agree to indemnify China against all types of future sanctions or prosecutions etc re Covid-19. The critically important thing is to establish exactly what happened in order to prevent SARS 3, SARS 4, etc. Absolutely everything else is of secondary importance. In the absence of malicious intent - and I think everyone agrees on that - we should have no interest in appointing blame.
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    What do you think the world will gain from indemnification of China? My money is on another frozen fish theory, or flying monkeys if lucky
- why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
  Well, do you expect any country would honestly say that they are responsible for global disaster like this? Even if it really was an 'industrial accident', the consequences are so severe that any country admitting it would open themselves to future lawsuits, embargo and who knows what else. And I'm not even mentioning 'losing face' which is a big deal in Asia.
  - benlumen 6y ago
    Yes. The people of many countries would demand it. Do not underestimate the transparency that democratic accountability provides. Western democracy is little short of a miracle in this respect. It is incomparable to China's unaccountable one-party dictatorship.
drran 6y ago
Wuhan lab is not unique. Virus can be leaked from any other lab. For example, Vector lab in Novosibirsk had a major breach just before the epidemic: equipment was stolen from the lab by first responders after a blast and fire. https://thebulletin.org/2019/11/what-happened-after-an-explosion-at-a-russian-disease-research-lab-called-vector/ https://thebulletin.org/2019/11/what-happened-after-an-explo...

reuben_scratton 6y ago

There is no direct evidence of zoonotic origin either. An entire year on and we don't even know the intermediate species, let alone where crossover occurred. With the original SARS this was worked out in a couple of weeks. Also I've yet to see any slightly convincing explanation as to why SARS-Cov-2 emerged from the wild spectacularly well-adapted to human ACE2.

BurningFrog 6y ago
Is this lack of information in itself unusual enough to imply the origin is being covered up?
mytailorisrich 6y ago
It took 15 years to find the origin of the original SARS, but indeed it took a few months to pinpoint the intermediary species (civets). Now I don't know about SARS but many people infected with SARS-Cov-2 have no symptoms or mild symptoms, which means the virus might circulate for a while before it hits a major population centre and blows up, which would make finding the source more difficult. They have already found virii in bats in Yunnan that are 96% similar to SARS-Cov-2 so it seems probable that the origin will be similar to the origin of SARS. Certainly the consensus is that the virus is natural despite you and others implying that it might not, which is nothing but FUD at this point. SARS origin: "Around late 2017, Chinese scientists traced the virus through the intermediary of Asian palm civets to cave-dwelling horseshoe bats in Xiyang Yi Ethnic Township, Yunnan" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndr...

throwawaysea 6y ago

How can we reasonably expect evidence when journalists were suppressed early on, domestic research into virus origins was censored/state controlled, and site visits from external organizations were prevented for an entire year? Clearly all of this is tampering with evidence and highly suspicious, and I feel like the label of “speculation” is misleading or missing context at best. Lab leaks are also not uncommon. There’s a reason why the Obama administration paused gain of function research - with risk of SARS research specifically called out - after numerous incidents (https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/10/17/doing-diligence-assess-risks-and-benefits-life-sciences-gain-function-research https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/10/17/doing-d...). With SARS (the first one), there were literally multiple lab leaks from the Beijing institute of virology, including one leak tied to deaths (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death).

benlumen 6y ago

The issue here is that if it was related to the WIV, which, i'll be honest - common sense tells me is likely, then the evidence will never see the light of day - because of the Chinese regime. They honestly want us to believe that it was brought in on frozen fish at the market around the corner - that it never even originated in China. This is what we're dealing with. It's gaslighting in the extreme.

reuben_scratton 6y ago
This is why I feel the international community should somehow come together to agree to indemnify China against all types of future sanctions or prosecutions etc re Covid-19. The critically important thing is to establish exactly what happened in order to prevent SARS 3, SARS 4, etc. Absolutely everything else is of secondary importance. In the absence of malicious intent - and I think everyone agrees on that - we should have no interest in appointing blame.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  What do you think the world will gain from indemnification of China? My money is on another frozen fish theory, or flying monkeys if lucky
why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
Well, do you expect any country would honestly say that they are responsible for global disaster like this? Even if it really was an 'industrial accident', the consequences are so severe that any country admitting it would open themselves to future lawsuits, embargo and who knows what else. And I'm not even mentioning 'losing face' which is a big deal in Asia.
- benlumen 6y ago
  Yes. The people of many countries would demand it. Do not underestimate the transparency that democratic accountability provides. Western democracy is little short of a miracle in this respect. It is incomparable to China's unaccountable one-party dictatorship.

drran 6y ago

Wuhan lab is not unique. Virus can be leaked from any other lab. For example, Vector lab in Novosibirsk had a major breach just before the epidemic: equipment was stolen from the lab by first responders after a blast and fire. https://thebulletin.org/2019/11/what-happened-after-an-explosion-at-a-russian-disease-research-lab-called-vector/ https://thebulletin.org/2019/11/what-happened-after-an-explo...