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hydrogen maybe the only economical way of transporting goods on medium and long distances The word "only" in your sentence is only meaningful in a world in whi

hydrogen maybe the only economical way of transporting goods on medium and long distances The word "only" in your sentence is only meaningful in a world in which diesel fuel and natural gas don't exist. Check out this map from the US DOE: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_locations.html Why there must be dozens of natural gas (both LNG and CNG) fueling stations around the country. There are even a handful in Canada. Almost nothing, but still way ahead of hydrogen. If you look at pure hydrogen (same map), there appear to be a few dozen stations in the entire country, all in California. In comparison, the number of electric stations (same map) is huge. Pure hydrogen is in last place. It's a joke. Toyota has wasted billions of dollars on it. Nobody is going to build out a hydrogen infrastructure given all the alternatives. Hydrogen as a transportation fuel is deader than the parrot in the Monty Python sketch. No amount of wishful thinking can change that.

bobmaxup 6y ago
Because there aren't many hydrogen refueling stations currently in the United States, no one is going to build any more, so it is a joke and dead?
- PhantomGremlin 6y ago
  It definitely is dead. There are 168,000 gas stations in the US. Supported by a huge network of oil fields, pipelines, and refineries. There are now 26,000 EV charging stations open to the public. In addition, there are literally billions of wall outlets that can be used to charge EVs. All supported by hundreds if not thousands of generating stations and an enormous power transmission network. There are hundreds of natural gas (LNG + CNG) stations. Given that existing multi-trillion dollar infrastructure, what would the business plan for building out hydrogen look like?
  - bobmaxup 6y ago
    > Given that existing multi-trillion dollar infrastructure, what would the business plan for building out hydrogen look like? I don't know, maybe something like CNG or EV stations two decades ago?
  - Ma8ee 6y ago
    How many EV charging stations were there in the US five years ago. Ten years ago? About business plan: start selling to fleets of taxis and short haul trucks. They are sensitive to fuel cost and consumption, but only need one or two stations in the whole metropolitan area. Do that in major cities. After that you only need a few stops between the towns. Natural gas, as all fossil fuels, are dead within a few years. It’s amazes me that people still haven’t seen that writing on the wall. Only idiots buy new fossil fuel cars today. They won’t have any resell value in a few years.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      > They are sensitive to fuel cost and consumption, And incredibly sensitive to price per mile. You add 800lb of batteries to a step van that delivers bread and you lose so much cargo capacity that you're no longer profitable or it bumps you up to a different class of vehicle with different regulatory requirements that make you no longer profitable. Believe me, tons of fleet operators are drooling over the idea of EV fleets that recharge overnight and the cost savings from drastically cutting the required regular maintenance. The economics just aren't there yet. >But idiots buy new fossil fuel cars today. They won’t have any resell value in a few years. Idiots vote so.....
      - Ma8ee 6y ago
        > And incredibly sensitive to price per mile... Which is why they choose hydrogen fuel cells instead of batteries. The energy density is much higher, and refuelling much faster. And even if you consider electric vehicles, I guess you know that Amazon have ordered 100,000 vehicles. Fortunately you don’t have to rely on politicians to do the right thing regarding electric cars. The total cost of buying and driving an electric car is already on the brink of being cheaper, and in two or three years there won’t even be any competition.

bobmaxup 6y ago

Because there aren't many hydrogen refueling stations currently in the United States, no one is going to build any more, so it is a joke and dead?

PhantomGremlin 6y ago
It definitely is dead. There are 168,000 gas stations in the US. Supported by a huge network of oil fields, pipelines, and refineries. There are now 26,000 EV charging stations open to the public. In addition, there are literally billions of wall outlets that can be used to charge EVs. All supported by hundreds if not thousands of generating stations and an enormous power transmission network. There are hundreds of natural gas (LNG + CNG) stations. Given that existing multi-trillion dollar infrastructure, what would the business plan for building out hydrogen look like?
- bobmaxup 6y ago
  > Given that existing multi-trillion dollar infrastructure, what would the business plan for building out hydrogen look like? I don't know, maybe something like CNG or EV stations two decades ago?
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  How many EV charging stations were there in the US five years ago. Ten years ago? About business plan: start selling to fleets of taxis and short haul trucks. They are sensitive to fuel cost and consumption, but only need one or two stations in the whole metropolitan area. Do that in major cities. After that you only need a few stops between the towns. Natural gas, as all fossil fuels, are dead within a few years. It’s amazes me that people still haven’t seen that writing on the wall. Only idiots buy new fossil fuel cars today. They won’t have any resell value in a few years.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    > They are sensitive to fuel cost and consumption, And incredibly sensitive to price per mile. You add 800lb of batteries to a step van that delivers bread and you lose so much cargo capacity that you're no longer profitable or it bumps you up to a different class of vehicle with different regulatory requirements that make you no longer profitable. Believe me, tons of fleet operators are drooling over the idea of EV fleets that recharge overnight and the cost savings from drastically cutting the required regular maintenance. The economics just aren't there yet. >But idiots buy new fossil fuel cars today. They won’t have any resell value in a few years. Idiots vote so.....
    - Ma8ee 6y ago
      > And incredibly sensitive to price per mile... Which is why they choose hydrogen fuel cells instead of batteries. The energy density is much higher, and refuelling much faster. And even if you consider electric vehicles, I guess you know that Amazon have ordered 100,000 vehicles. Fortunately you don’t have to rely on politicians to do the right thing regarding electric cars. The total cost of buying and driving an electric car is already on the brink of being cheaper, and in two or three years there won’t even be any competition.