4 ms·

Could you explain why such a processor is 1000x more expensive than a non-rugged one ? I mean, considering the future of earth, I'd certainly welcome a processo

by wiz21c 6y ago

Could you explain why such a processor is 1000x more expensive than a non-rugged one ? I mean, considering the future of earth, I'd certainly welcome a processor that could withstand a lifespan of decades (including the harsh "I'm going to unsolder it to put it in another device" environment).

ben_w 6y ago
From this list, I assume the isotopic purity is the biggest contribution to the price, though I expect relative lack of mass production doesn’t help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Part of it is low demand, so you don't benefit from economies of scale. Also the customers buying this type of equipment are able to bear such costs. They aren't gonna haggle over $100k on a critical component to a $3B mission.
- dylan604 6y ago
  a $100k here, a $100k there, suddenly, we're talking real money.
  - reilly3000 6y ago
    Oh we're talking real money. JPL will destroy 78 production grade parachutes to find all the ways they can break. There is tremendous energy poured into eliminating risk, because launch is so expensive. As it becomes cheaper, perhaps these measures won't be as necessary.
    - derekp7 6y ago
      With Spacex being able to launch a car out beyond the orbit of Mars, is their current capability being considered for future JPL missions? Or is everything waiting on Starship?
      - dylan604 6y ago
        Thankfully, SpaceX isn't waiting for anyone. They are in the front with a machete wacking down the limbs leaving a trail for others to follow. Of course SpaceX is standing on the shoulders of those missions that lead the way before, but let's be honest, after Gemini, Mercury, Apollo, Shuttle, everything else has been a bit stagnant. Not taking anything away from all of the probes and rover missions. Those are the only things that make NASA relevant. Finally, we have a space agency actively working on humans in space again.
        TeMPOraL 6y ago
        And it's not like people at JPL are clenching their fists and screaming, "Damn you, Shotwell! Begone, Mueller! SEC eat you, Musk!". NASA is fully on-board with what SpaceX is doing - cutting straight into and reversing the dreaded Space Mission Costs Spiral. They may be cautious now, but eventually, they'll just start putting scientific probes on SpaceX rockets too (and those of competitors). SLS notwithstanding, NASA is happy to outsource launches and focus on bleeding edge missions. And if SpaceX blazes the trail? Expect more scientific missions to follow, as cheaper and more frequent launches - the Spiral put into reverse - cuts mission costs across the board. NASA will be able to do more cool stuff with their budget. And so will everyone else.
moftz 6y ago
The low demand definitely leads to higher prices but the other aspect is all of the additional testing involved for every chip. There's standard testing at every level of the manufacturing process and there will be further environmental testing at the package level. They will even run radiation tests on the wafer to characterize any quirks.
- m4rtink 6y ago
  Hopefully as more space & deep space stuff gets going there will be more demand and the unit cost will go down thanks to economies of scale. Or alternatively ways of computing are tried and found viable (massive shielding, standardized massive redundancy, etc.).
pja 6y ago
IIRC it’s a custom process using wide-bandgap silicon (part of the whole rad-hardening thing) that no-one else needs or wants, so you have to pay the full costs of a fab run for a relatively small number of chips. Hence the cost per chip is huge.
WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
Specs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750
wiml 6y ago
For radiation-hardened semiconductors sometimes you use specialized processes like silicon-on-insulator. Even if you're using a more conventional process, you're probably using specialized upset-resistant gate designs and layout. And even your gate-level or HDL-level design might have changes to make it possible to detect and recover from some kinds of bitflips. It really affects the whole technology stack.

by wiz21c 6y ago

ben_w 6y ago

From this list, I assume the isotopic purity is the biggest contribution to the price, though I expect relative lack of mass production doesn’t help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening

TeMPOraL 6y ago

Part of it is low demand, so you don't benefit from economies of scale. Also the customers buying this type of equipment are able to bear such costs. They aren't gonna haggle over $100k on a critical component to a $3B mission.

dylan604 6y ago
a $100k here, a $100k there, suddenly, we're talking real money.
- reilly3000 6y ago
  Oh we're talking real money. JPL will destroy 78 production grade parachutes to find all the ways they can break. There is tremendous energy poured into eliminating risk, because launch is so expensive. As it becomes cheaper, perhaps these measures won't be as necessary.
  - derekp7 6y ago
    With Spacex being able to launch a car out beyond the orbit of Mars, is their current capability being considered for future JPL missions? Or is everything waiting on Starship?
    - dylan604 6y ago
      Thankfully, SpaceX isn't waiting for anyone. They are in the front with a machete wacking down the limbs leaving a trail for others to follow. Of course SpaceX is standing on the shoulders of those missions that lead the way before, but let's be honest, after Gemini, Mercury, Apollo, Shuttle, everything else has been a bit stagnant. Not taking anything away from all of the probes and rover missions. Those are the only things that make NASA relevant. Finally, we have a space agency actively working on humans in space again.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        And it's not like people at JPL are clenching their fists and screaming, "Damn you, Shotwell! Begone, Mueller! SEC eat you, Musk!". NASA is fully on-board with what SpaceX is doing - cutting straight into and reversing the dreaded Space Mission Costs Spiral. They may be cautious now, but eventually, they'll just start putting scientific probes on SpaceX rockets too (and those of competitors). SLS notwithstanding, NASA is happy to outsource launches and focus on bleeding edge missions. And if SpaceX blazes the trail? Expect more scientific missions to follow, as cheaper and more frequent launches - the Spiral put into reverse - cuts mission costs across the board. NASA will be able to do more cool stuff with their budget. And so will everyone else.

moftz 6y ago

The low demand definitely leads to higher prices but the other aspect is all of the additional testing involved for every chip. There's standard testing at every level of the manufacturing process and there will be further environmental testing at the package level. They will even run radiation tests on the wafer to characterize any quirks.

m4rtink 6y ago
Hopefully as more space & deep space stuff gets going there will be more demand and the unit cost will go down thanks to economies of scale. Or alternatively ways of computing are tried and found viable (massive shielding, standardized massive redundancy, etc.).

pja 6y ago

IIRC it’s a custom process using wide-bandgap silicon (part of the whole rad-hardening thing) that no-one else needs or wants, so you have to pay the full costs of a fab run for a relatively small number of chips. Hence the cost per chip is huge.

WarOnPrivacy 6y ago

Specs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750

wiml 6y ago

For radiation-hardened semiconductors sometimes you use specialized processes like silicon-on-insulator. Even if you're using a more conventional process, you're probably using specialized upset-resistant gate designs and layout. And even your gate-level or HDL-level design might have changes to make it possible to detect and recover from some kinds of bitflips. It really affects the whole technology stack.