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I admire your efforts to clean. But unfortunately it’s pointless. There are entire million and billion population countries that treat oceans as waste baskets,

by moltar 6y ago

I admire your efforts to clean. But unfortunately it’s pointless. There are entire million and billion population countries that treat oceans as waste baskets, simply because they don’t know better. I’ve talked to fishermen in rural Thailand and they don’t have waste collection. So they take their trash every day and just dump it in the middle of the ocean somewhere. They didn’t understand why that was a problem when I discussed it with them.

jcims 6y ago
My imagination has a pretty big range for 'rural Thailand', do they have a safe way to dispose of it inland? Subsistence folks, to the extent that it might apply here, get a pass from me.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  The issue is that 90% of the plastic in the ocean is dumped from 10 rivers in Asia and Africa where the waste disposal system consists of driving a truck up to a river and dumping the trash in. Of the remaining 10%, it comes from Latin American nations that do the same thing. Meanwhile western people see these masses of trash and plastic in the ocean and conclude the rational response is to ban straws in the western nations that do have effective waste disposal systems that don't consist of transporting said waste to the ocean and dumping it. So the question is whether the outrage about ocean pollution is harnessed towards effectively addressing the problem or whether it is dissipated in the heat of pointless kabuki rituals that we do to absolve ourselves of guilt, even as the trash in the oceans piles up every time someone in the third world throws something away.
  - Clewza313 6y ago
    A lot of those effective waste disposal systems in the West, particularly for recycling, consist of paying Asian and African companies to take away the waste, so it can then be dumped in their countries/oceans or get "recycled" in places like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie
    - rsj_hn 6y ago
      No, that is not a waste disposal system, it's how tech companies and other companies that sell gadgets fool their eco customers into thinking they are "recycling" something that cannot in principle be safely recycled. It is yet another example of going through a kabuki ritual rather than effectively dealing with the problem.
      - Clewza313 6y ago
        Agreed, but weren't you claiming earlier that poor countries are responsible for 100% of the plastic waste problem?
        rsj_hn 6y ago
        I think that's a good approximation. The volume of computer parts or used phones isn't significant compared to the total volume of waste produced domestically in these nations. But it's a separate tragedy that companies like Apple can pay partners to "recycle" stuff that ends up in a landfill in Nigeria somewhere, or manually stripped of copper and other parts by people working in unsafe conditions.
      - burntoutfire 6y ago
        It's not only recycling. Currently, in my area of Poland there are gangs which bring toxic industrial waste from Western Europe in large quantities and just dump them wherever, while collecting the fee from industrial clients for properly disposing of them. This is a very recent trend, that was, from what I've read, started by China no longer importing European waste. You can only imagine how often "disposing of" such waste in China consisted of dumping it into a forest or pouring into ground or a river.
    - BelenusMordred 6y ago
      Plastic recycling done in Asia is the result of incredibly cheap return shipping as most containers come back empty. People who get outraged about it don't understand that due to cheaper wages and energy costs, plus the need for raw feedstock in the manufacturing countries it's actually a really decent system. It's a closed loop where plastic goods are produced in Asia and recyclable plastic returns on the same ship, it gets processed and keeps raw material prices low for continued use in manufacturing for export again. It doesn't just get shipped there and thrown in a river. The real problem, especially in South East Asia is very much cultural, many assumed that societies would become more environmentally friendly as they got richer but that is not the case, they are polluting more than ever. It's incredibly common to see people throw rubbish on the ground despite being right next to a bin. Nearly every waterway is horrendously polluted with plastic consumer products. It's an externality that the rest of the world must bear. The other poster here is on the money, nearly all of it comes from a few catchments. Half the plastic in the ocean comes from 5 countries, all are in Asia. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/asia-s-plastic-problem-is-choking-the-world-s-oceans-here-s-how-to-fix-it https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/asia-s-plastic-proble...
- vlovich123 6y ago
  What’s the waste stream looking like? Like can we trace how this trash originates and why it’s not ending up where it should? If poor areas with weak government services are the problem, then that’s a problem, no?
neolog 6y ago
What could they do with the waste instead, if they don't have collection?
- hanniabu 6y ago
  Honestly burning it just might be better. Without doing any calculations my intuitions tell me it would be minuscule on the global scale and the benefit of that garbage not going into the ocean would outweigh the added air pollution.
- jpindar 6y ago
  In parts of the US that don't have garbage collection, people are expected to either take it to a dump or bury it on their own land.
0x003 6y ago
One person doing something in the face of billions of others is the entire opposite of pointless. Giving up because you're one person and you can't magically transform the entire world is cynical, a cop-out and completely misunderstands the nature of the problem. The world won't change overnight, it won't immediately flip from the actions of one individual, or two, or even 1 thousand or 1 million. But that doesn't mean the action is pointless. Change requires momentum, momentum requires the actions of an individual diligently living the change they want to see and sharing it with others. That sort of change builds slowly, often imperceptibly. But before you know it things begin actually changing. So no, this binary attitude of "You can't change everything by your actions so you may as well do nothing" is such an apathetic, cynical cop-out and I hate seeing it spouted everytime you see someone do something positive. As an idea it literally does nothing but harm and it has no value in being said.
- daave 6y ago
  It's not pointless, but I do think it's reasonable to question whether this is the best thing one can do to have an impact. Could the time spent taking the neighbors trash away be spent doing something even more impactful? Is the interaction with these neighbors caring and educative, or antagonistic? In the latter case they're unlikely to emulate it or pass on the idea to others.
  - 0x003 6y ago
    It's not about doing the best thing, it's about doing something. You don't have to perfectly efficient, just take simple actions that reflect the change you want to see. We all have limited time and energy, if you see something positive you can do you shouldn't dismiss the idea of doing it just because you could sell all your belongings and become an eco-warrior and be maximally efficient in pursuing a positive development. Don't do nothing because you could be doing more. Just do what you can. Do something good and do it consistently.
    - solipsism 6y ago
      Why though, if you're not going to make a difference? Why bother? The reality is that the reason we do these things is to make ourselves feel better. Ah, yes, my daily shot of endorphins from recycling. Ah yes, my bumper sticker makes sure everyone knows I'm one of the good ones -- my social standing is safe. This philosophy is why middle class first world kids pay thousands of dollars to go on missionary trips to build a single well in a far away village. Yes, you got dirty with the natives and did something. I think it's all hollow. If you aren't making a real impact -- actually moving the needle -- you are doing nothing. It's just a vanity. I believe in donating money to causes that have high impact. Given my skillset, I'm confident that's by far the best thing I can do. And aside from that, I don't sweat the small stuff. I have a keurig. Yep you heard right. Also donated enough to save a few lives from malaria. Exactly one of those facts about myself made any difference at all to the world.
blondie9x 6y ago
If one million people make a little effort the impact will be huge. Dont't be pessimistic. Lead by example. The simplified, minimalist, sustainable living style is contagious because it is as we are meant to actually live. In balance with the energy of the planet we depend upon and are part of.
heavyset_go 6y ago
One rural fisherman's garbage production doesn't scale, though. A company owned by a handful of people can put out more pollution than that of millions of rural fishermen.

by moltar 6y ago

jcims 6y ago

My imagination has a pretty big range for 'rural Thailand', do they have a safe way to dispose of it inland? Subsistence folks, to the extent that it might apply here, get a pass from me.

rsj_hn 6y ago
The issue is that 90% of the plastic in the ocean is dumped from 10 rivers in Asia and Africa where the waste disposal system consists of driving a truck up to a river and dumping the trash in. Of the remaining 10%, it comes from Latin American nations that do the same thing. Meanwhile western people see these masses of trash and plastic in the ocean and conclude the rational response is to ban straws in the western nations that do have effective waste disposal systems that don't consist of transporting said waste to the ocean and dumping it. So the question is whether the outrage about ocean pollution is harnessed towards effectively addressing the problem or whether it is dissipated in the heat of pointless kabuki rituals that we do to absolve ourselves of guilt, even as the trash in the oceans piles up every time someone in the third world throws something away.
- Clewza313 6y ago
  A lot of those effective waste disposal systems in the West, particularly for recycling, consist of paying Asian and African companies to take away the waste, so it can then be dumped in their countries/oceans or get "recycled" in places like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie
  - rsj_hn 6y ago
    No, that is not a waste disposal system, it's how tech companies and other companies that sell gadgets fool their eco customers into thinking they are "recycling" something that cannot in principle be safely recycled. It is yet another example of going through a kabuki ritual rather than effectively dealing with the problem.
    - Clewza313 6y ago
      Agreed, but weren't you claiming earlier that poor countries are responsible for 100% of the plastic waste problem?
      - rsj_hn 6y ago
        I think that's a good approximation. The volume of computer parts or used phones isn't significant compared to the total volume of waste produced domestically in these nations. But it's a separate tragedy that companies like Apple can pay partners to "recycle" stuff that ends up in a landfill in Nigeria somewhere, or manually stripped of copper and other parts by people working in unsafe conditions.
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
      It's not only recycling. Currently, in my area of Poland there are gangs which bring toxic industrial waste from Western Europe in large quantities and just dump them wherever, while collecting the fee from industrial clients for properly disposing of them. This is a very recent trend, that was, from what I've read, started by China no longer importing European waste. You can only imagine how often "disposing of" such waste in China consisted of dumping it into a forest or pouring into ground or a river.
  - BelenusMordred 6y ago
    Plastic recycling done in Asia is the result of incredibly cheap return shipping as most containers come back empty. People who get outraged about it don't understand that due to cheaper wages and energy costs, plus the need for raw feedstock in the manufacturing countries it's actually a really decent system. It's a closed loop where plastic goods are produced in Asia and recyclable plastic returns on the same ship, it gets processed and keeps raw material prices low for continued use in manufacturing for export again. It doesn't just get shipped there and thrown in a river. The real problem, especially in South East Asia is very much cultural, many assumed that societies would become more environmentally friendly as they got richer but that is not the case, they are polluting more than ever. It's incredibly common to see people throw rubbish on the ground despite being right next to a bin. Nearly every waterway is horrendously polluted with plastic consumer products. It's an externality that the rest of the world must bear. The other poster here is on the money, nearly all of it comes from a few catchments. Half the plastic in the ocean comes from 5 countries, all are in Asia. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/asia-s-plastic-problem-is-choking-the-world-s-oceans-here-s-how-to-fix-it https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/asia-s-plastic-proble...
vlovich123 6y ago
What’s the waste stream looking like? Like can we trace how this trash originates and why it’s not ending up where it should? If poor areas with weak government services are the problem, then that’s a problem, no?

neolog 6y ago

What could they do with the waste instead, if they don't have collection?

hanniabu 6y ago
Honestly burning it just might be better. Without doing any calculations my intuitions tell me it would be minuscule on the global scale and the benefit of that garbage not going into the ocean would outweigh the added air pollution.
jpindar 6y ago
In parts of the US that don't have garbage collection, people are expected to either take it to a dump or bury it on their own land.

0x003 6y ago

One person doing something in the face of billions of others is the entire opposite of pointless. Giving up because you're one person and you can't magically transform the entire world is cynical, a cop-out and completely misunderstands the nature of the problem. The world won't change overnight, it won't immediately flip from the actions of one individual, or two, or even 1 thousand or 1 million. But that doesn't mean the action is pointless. Change requires momentum, momentum requires the actions of an individual diligently living the change they want to see and sharing it with others. That sort of change builds slowly, often imperceptibly. But before you know it things begin actually changing. So no, this binary attitude of "You can't change everything by your actions so you may as well do nothing" is such an apathetic, cynical cop-out and I hate seeing it spouted everytime you see someone do something positive. As an idea it literally does nothing but harm and it has no value in being said.

daave 6y ago
It's not pointless, but I do think it's reasonable to question whether this is the best thing one can do to have an impact. Could the time spent taking the neighbors trash away be spent doing something even more impactful? Is the interaction with these neighbors caring and educative, or antagonistic? In the latter case they're unlikely to emulate it or pass on the idea to others.
- 0x003 6y ago
  It's not about doing the best thing, it's about doing something. You don't have to perfectly efficient, just take simple actions that reflect the change you want to see. We all have limited time and energy, if you see something positive you can do you shouldn't dismiss the idea of doing it just because you could sell all your belongings and become an eco-warrior and be maximally efficient in pursuing a positive development. Don't do nothing because you could be doing more. Just do what you can. Do something good and do it consistently.
  - solipsism 6y ago
    Why though, if you're not going to make a difference? Why bother? The reality is that the reason we do these things is to make ourselves feel better. Ah, yes, my daily shot of endorphins from recycling. Ah yes, my bumper sticker makes sure everyone knows I'm one of the good ones -- my social standing is safe. This philosophy is why middle class first world kids pay thousands of dollars to go on missionary trips to build a single well in a far away village. Yes, you got dirty with the natives and did something. I think it's all hollow. If you aren't making a real impact -- actually moving the needle -- you are doing nothing. It's just a vanity. I believe in donating money to causes that have high impact. Given my skillset, I'm confident that's by far the best thing I can do. And aside from that, I don't sweat the small stuff. I have a keurig. Yep you heard right. Also donated enough to save a few lives from malaria. Exactly one of those facts about myself made any difference at all to the world.

blondie9x 6y ago

If one million people make a little effort the impact will be huge. Dont't be pessimistic. Lead by example. The simplified, minimalist, sustainable living style is contagious because it is as we are meant to actually live. In balance with the energy of the planet we depend upon and are part of.

heavyset_go 6y ago

One rural fisherman's garbage production doesn't scale, though. A company owned by a handful of people can put out more pollution than that of millions of rural fishermen.