5 ms·

One could just as easily say that you're missing the opposite point: why should policy prevent new people from moving in? In either scenario, policy will disadv

One could just as easily say that you're missing the opposite point: why should policy prevent new people from moving in? In either scenario, policy will disadvantage one group and advantage another. Any policies that aim to give stability to long-term tenants is liable to disadvantage new and shorter-term tenants. There's no natural law dictating that people should be forced to move out, but there's also no natural law dictating that newcomers should be forced away.

tehjoker 6y ago
I agree, but I don't think the literal lord of a property should be able to force people to migrate by demanding higher tribute. There should be a rational humane process that isn't driven by simple greed.
- mjevans 6y ago
  As a suggestion for a process... Pick a duration upon which to re-evaluate the value of property. Distribute this roughly evenly over all the property everywhere so that it isn't all at once. When a property's up for evaluation, offer it for 'sale' via a distributed dutch auction as part of a block with similar properties in the same jurisdiction (roughly, zipcodes, or maybe divided up should work). The block is bid on as a whole, with up to 25% (rounded up) of any of it excluded from the bids (high or low) and with any 'inspection noted defects' (post sale) deducted from the transfer price of the property. Price for a given unit would be proportional to the previously evaluated (by market sale or bid) price of the property among the whole group. Any units not receiving sufficient bidding coverage to provide a fair price should be re-tried with the aim towards the median value of the next group of properties in that area. The resulting offer is then forwarded to the residents as proof of their new property value and the basis for all taxes upon it. The resident has an option to accept that value anytime within 8 months, for a specified date of no more than 6 months from when they've accepted the offer.
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    Why are we randomly forcing residents to leave? Why don't we just take the available housing stock and divide it between old and new residents in a rational manner? Should an individual or family be kicked to the curb just because someone has a preference for living somewhere? What if they could prove a necessity? There's a lot to be said for knowing that once you pick a place to live you can depend on it being there as long as you need it and can develop a community, take risks in other areas of life, etc.
    - mjevans 6y ago
      They don't have to accept the deals, they'd have the __option__ and I'm trying to make it easier for them to take the highest bidding option so that someone knows they have the best deal. The highest bid from among bids in their area. This is to ensure a __fair evaluation__ of a property's value on a real market, rather than some random assessor's opinion.
    - jakecopp 6y ago
      > Why don't we just take the available housing stock and divide it between old and new residents in a rational manner? How on earth to "divide" it fairly though? This is exactly what the free market (attempts) to do, and might do better without rent control or overbearing zoning restrictions - allocate resources optimally according to demand. Want to live in a super fancy place in the middle of the city? Pay lots because it's a luxury. Can't afford that or don't want to? Live further out where there is plentiful cheap housing stock (I said no overbearing zoning restrictions remember!) and commute via a well resourced, publicly funded transport system (unfortunately the US doesn't do this well).
- gameman144 6y ago
  You can flip this argument on its head so easily, though: "why should a person be able to keep out others who want the property more, in an arrangement that both the newcomers and the person who has poured their money into the property, solely out of their own selfishness in not wanting to move." When you frame the motivations of individuals with such simplistic motivations as natural market forces being entirely driven by "greed", I have a hard time believing that you'll actually get to the bottom of things. In much the same way I don't think that workers/unions fighting for higher wages is "greed", I don't think that people that have invested in homes wanting to get the market rate for their homes is "greed".
  - kelnos 6y ago
    Real property is a limited resource. We accept that buying a piece of land often doesn't give you the legal right to do literally anything you want with it. You can't open a store on land zoned for residential use, for example. From there it's just a matter of deciding what is and isn't allowed. I happen to be viscerally against the idea that a person's basic need -- a stable home -- should be overridden by another's desire to get more money out of an investment. You seem to be of the opinion that people shouldn't have the right to a stable home if the owner of that home wants more money. I... guess that's ok? Not really big on compassion or empathy, but... it's an opinion, I suppose. Your focus on "greed" completely lacks nuance. A landlord raising rent 30% just because demand is high (when the costs of being a landlord have not meaningfully increased; the concept of "market rate" is irrelevant here) is greed, absolutely, no question about it. A worker or union fighting for higher wages may or may not be greed, depending on the circumstances; usually it's not, because in general employers have much more power than employees (even when unions are involved), and worker pay has stagnated in recent decades, while executive pay has skyrocketed.
    - gameman144 6y ago
      > You seem to be of the opinion that people shouldn't have the right to a stable home if the owner of that home wants more money. I... guess that's ok? Not really big on compassion or empathy, but... it's an opinion, I suppose. I mean, that's painting with a pretty broad brush. Nobody said anything about legalizing doing anything you want with land. You're never going to have a perfectly stable arrangement when renting someone else's property: I don't own a car or exercise equipment; if Uber or my local gym raise rates, I'll be bummed, but I don't begrudge them for doing it (even if it means I have to move to a less convenient gym.) I have empathy for those Uber drivers and workers at the gym. I can absolutely empathize with those living through increases in rent, I just happen to believe that the solution to that problem is not to implement policies that make those renters beholden to their current landlords forever (even if their circumstances change and a new home would be more convenient). And just as I have empathy for those renters who want to stay in their homes, I have empathy for those renters who got a new job across town but can't afford to move, because they've lived in the same home for fifteen years and can't afford market rate at a new place. As far as landlords go, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to raise the cost of rent to keep up with cost-of-living just like anyone else. My current landlord own a house or two on my block, and they make their living off of the profits they earn by renting and maintaining these houses. Just like I want to get a bump in pay every year, it seems eminently reasonable (and not greedy of them) to grant that to them as well. I have empathy for the landlords who provide me with my home, and provide repairs and maintenance. If the problem that we're talking about is that people can't afford their homes because the rate that others is willing to pay is higher than they can afford, the solution is not to form isolated bubbles that ignore what's going on in the rest of the market and create indentured renters. Just one of many better solutions would be subsidized rent assistance: give the renters the difference they need to make rent, straight up in cash. If costs in the city have gone up by 10%, that's just evidence of the fact that there's a ton of demand fighting for not enough supply. Artificially restricting supply even further is an unsustainable solution for the city as a whole, and far better solutions already exist for keeping people in their homes. I guess my big point is that if you boil down a complex issue like this to good people vs. bad people, you're not being honest to the actual issues at hand. To assume that landlords increase rent solely out of greed, or to assume that being okay with rent increases implies a lack of compassion, or to assume that support for policies that lock-in rent are the only empathetic stance to hold don't seem to leave a lot of room for discussion or understanding.
asdff 6y ago
Policy should instead favor constructing supply to fit new people moving in while not displacing current tenants. Extending commutes from ten minute bus rides to three hour car journeys in the name of hyperlocal market forces is neither good for the economy or the planet.
blub 6y ago
Insiders almost always have more rights than outsiders. Berlin has more than enough people living there, they don't need the outsiders and its within their rights to discourage them from moving in. But this isn't even doing that as they're very welcoming, they merely want to protect the people already living there.

tehjoker 6y ago

I agree, but I don't think the literal lord of a property should be able to force people to migrate by demanding higher tribute. There should be a rational humane process that isn't driven by simple greed.

mjevans 6y ago
As a suggestion for a process... Pick a duration upon which to re-evaluate the value of property. Distribute this roughly evenly over all the property everywhere so that it isn't all at once. When a property's up for evaluation, offer it for 'sale' via a distributed dutch auction as part of a block with similar properties in the same jurisdiction (roughly, zipcodes, or maybe divided up should work). The block is bid on as a whole, with up to 25% (rounded up) of any of it excluded from the bids (high or low) and with any 'inspection noted defects' (post sale) deducted from the transfer price of the property. Price for a given unit would be proportional to the previously evaluated (by market sale or bid) price of the property among the whole group. Any units not receiving sufficient bidding coverage to provide a fair price should be re-tried with the aim towards the median value of the next group of properties in that area. The resulting offer is then forwarded to the residents as proof of their new property value and the basis for all taxes upon it. The resident has an option to accept that value anytime within 8 months, for a specified date of no more than 6 months from when they've accepted the offer.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  Why are we randomly forcing residents to leave? Why don't we just take the available housing stock and divide it between old and new residents in a rational manner? Should an individual or family be kicked to the curb just because someone has a preference for living somewhere? What if they could prove a necessity? There's a lot to be said for knowing that once you pick a place to live you can depend on it being there as long as you need it and can develop a community, take risks in other areas of life, etc.
  - mjevans 6y ago
    They don't have to accept the deals, they'd have the __option__ and I'm trying to make it easier for them to take the highest bidding option so that someone knows they have the best deal. The highest bid from among bids in their area. This is to ensure a __fair evaluation__ of a property's value on a real market, rather than some random assessor's opinion.
  - jakecopp 6y ago
    > Why don't we just take the available housing stock and divide it between old and new residents in a rational manner? How on earth to "divide" it fairly though? This is exactly what the free market (attempts) to do, and might do better without rent control or overbearing zoning restrictions - allocate resources optimally according to demand. Want to live in a super fancy place in the middle of the city? Pay lots because it's a luxury. Can't afford that or don't want to? Live further out where there is plentiful cheap housing stock (I said no overbearing zoning restrictions remember!) and commute via a well resourced, publicly funded transport system (unfortunately the US doesn't do this well).
gameman144 6y ago
You can flip this argument on its head so easily, though: "why should a person be able to keep out others who want the property more, in an arrangement that both the newcomers and the person who has poured their money into the property, solely out of their own selfishness in not wanting to move." When you frame the motivations of individuals with such simplistic motivations as natural market forces being entirely driven by "greed", I have a hard time believing that you'll actually get to the bottom of things. In much the same way I don't think that workers/unions fighting for higher wages is "greed", I don't think that people that have invested in homes wanting to get the market rate for their homes is "greed".
- kelnos 6y ago
  Real property is a limited resource. We accept that buying a piece of land often doesn't give you the legal right to do literally anything you want with it. You can't open a store on land zoned for residential use, for example. From there it's just a matter of deciding what is and isn't allowed. I happen to be viscerally against the idea that a person's basic need -- a stable home -- should be overridden by another's desire to get more money out of an investment. You seem to be of the opinion that people shouldn't have the right to a stable home if the owner of that home wants more money. I... guess that's ok? Not really big on compassion or empathy, but... it's an opinion, I suppose. Your focus on "greed" completely lacks nuance. A landlord raising rent 30% just because demand is high (when the costs of being a landlord have not meaningfully increased; the concept of "market rate" is irrelevant here) is greed, absolutely, no question about it. A worker or union fighting for higher wages may or may not be greed, depending on the circumstances; usually it's not, because in general employers have much more power than employees (even when unions are involved), and worker pay has stagnated in recent decades, while executive pay has skyrocketed.
  - gameman144 6y ago
    > You seem to be of the opinion that people shouldn't have the right to a stable home if the owner of that home wants more money. I... guess that's ok? Not really big on compassion or empathy, but... it's an opinion, I suppose. I mean, that's painting with a pretty broad brush. Nobody said anything about legalizing doing anything you want with land. You're never going to have a perfectly stable arrangement when renting someone else's property: I don't own a car or exercise equipment; if Uber or my local gym raise rates, I'll be bummed, but I don't begrudge them for doing it (even if it means I have to move to a less convenient gym.) I have empathy for those Uber drivers and workers at the gym. I can absolutely empathize with those living through increases in rent, I just happen to believe that the solution to that problem is not to implement policies that make those renters beholden to their current landlords forever (even if their circumstances change and a new home would be more convenient). And just as I have empathy for those renters who want to stay in their homes, I have empathy for those renters who got a new job across town but can't afford to move, because they've lived in the same home for fifteen years and can't afford market rate at a new place. As far as landlords go, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to raise the cost of rent to keep up with cost-of-living just like anyone else. My current landlord own a house or two on my block, and they make their living off of the profits they earn by renting and maintaining these houses. Just like I want to get a bump in pay every year, it seems eminently reasonable (and not greedy of them) to grant that to them as well. I have empathy for the landlords who provide me with my home, and provide repairs and maintenance. If the problem that we're talking about is that people can't afford their homes because the rate that others is willing to pay is higher than they can afford, the solution is not to form isolated bubbles that ignore what's going on in the rest of the market and create indentured renters. Just one of many better solutions would be subsidized rent assistance: give the renters the difference they need to make rent, straight up in cash. If costs in the city have gone up by 10%, that's just evidence of the fact that there's a ton of demand fighting for not enough supply. Artificially restricting supply even further is an unsustainable solution for the city as a whole, and far better solutions already exist for keeping people in their homes. I guess my big point is that if you boil down a complex issue like this to good people vs. bad people, you're not being honest to the actual issues at hand. To assume that landlords increase rent solely out of greed, or to assume that being okay with rent increases implies a lack of compassion, or to assume that support for policies that lock-in rent are the only empathetic stance to hold don't seem to leave a lot of room for discussion or understanding.

asdff 6y ago

Policy should instead favor constructing supply to fit new people moving in while not displacing current tenants. Extending commutes from ten minute bus rides to three hour car journeys in the name of hyperlocal market forces is neither good for the economy or the planet.

blub 6y ago

Insiders almost always have more rights than outsiders. Berlin has more than enough people living there, they don't need the outsiders and its within their rights to discourage them from moving in. But this isn't even doing that as they're very welcoming, they merely want to protect the people already living there.