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Man, what a damning article. This could be really tough for Amazon. > During the 2017-2019 time frame, no Black employees were hired at or promoted to the dire

by bradhe 6y ago

Man, what a damning article. This could be really tough for Amazon. > During the 2017-2019 time frame, no Black employees were hired at or promoted to the director level ("L8") within Amazon's public policy division, the suit alleges. Neither were any Black employees hired at the next level down, L7, until December 2018. That's pretty specific. I wonder how big the public policy division is? If I look at amazon.jobs there are like 8 pages of open recs in public policy...so it's a pretty huge organization. And global, too. > she did the work of an L7 job for several years before receiving a promotion to that level in fall 2019. This one is a little tougher for me. It's pretty common to "do the work" of the next level for a promotion. In isolation, this doesn't seem so bad. But if she was deleveled before even taking the role that's...not a good look.

myroon5 6y ago
Unfortunately, de-leveling seems common as well
throwaay 6y ago
We don't know the poolsize for any of these numbers. Hope the lawsuit goes into that. Would be good to see numbers for all ethnicities as a comparison. For eg: how many asian people at amazon vs directors? Offhand, I think you will see that there are fewer asian directors when considering the total asian pop at amazon vs white. Is that a problem? From my anecdotal experience, I just don't see too many black or latino people in tech companies so I would assume this is partly a pipeline issue which we can address at the correct spot in the funnel rather than bringing in token black l8s. Otherwise the next spate of articles will say "Black L8s fired at higher rates than other ethnicites". Also, re-levelling during interviews is common at Amazon: just because you applied for a position doesnt mean there are enough data-points in the interview that support you getting that position (esp at L6+ level), but we may think you are "amazonian" enough to be extended an offer with re-level. What probably happened is the candidate was re-leveled, then was setup for success by being provided multiple opportunities to prove themselves, which took a few years. This also makes sense because a promo-doc requires consistent evidence of performing at the next level. Now, a senior manager should know all this so A) this is a bad faith lawsuit driven by entitlement or, B) she decided that this was a big enough problem to burn a few bridges. I'm interested to see what data the lawsuit dredges up.
- bradhe 6y ago
  I'm wondering how clear it was to her about the re-level when she accepted the offer. I'm sure it must have been pretty clear? I agree with what you're supposing in terms of how it likely went down. I don't think that would really qualify as "doing the work of another level" or whatever they originally said. Great insight, too, on the subsequent headline if Amazon just starts recruiting black candidates willy-nilly.
  - throwaay 6y ago
    When you accept the offer, the recruiter should have messaged it similar to what I said (ie: you have been re-leveled at l6). Also, comp ranges are very different + you can easily see what level you are. Failing that, after accepting the offer and doing some interviews + performance management as an L7, the situation would have been clear.
- philwelch 6y ago
  > From my anecdotal experience, I just don't see too many black or latino people in tech companies so I would assume this is partly a pipeline issue which we can address at the correct spot in the funnel rather than bringing in token black l8s. The thing is, this wasn’t a tech role. It was in “public policy” which I take to mean lobbying, and her previous experience was as a staffer to a US Senator. So her career is in politics rather than tech. The other thing is that suing a broadly unpopular company for discrimination isn’t really going to be a career limiting move. Most companies settle most lawsuits, so you get to put on your resume that you successfully and publicly sued a big unpopular company for discrimination. But maybe I’m just being cynical about people who go into professional politics.
shostack 6y ago
Drawing conclusions on org size based on number of job postings at big companies doesn't always tell you much. Many postings for the same role are common either because they may be testing different descriptions to see what gets quality candidates, have a general pipeline they try to keep filled, or both.
ksec 6y ago
> From the start, she alleges, she was "de-leveled"—hired at a position below the one for which she applied and for which she was qualified—and undercompensated as a result. Underpaying Black employees through de-leveling is routine at Amazon, the suit (PDF) alleges. Unpopular opinion. Underpaying, de-leveling, and under compensated is pretty much the norm in all organisations and across all industries. I would actually argue that is the problem because of ALL HR and Recruiters. ( Sorry I have never met any good one ) So without lots of evidence it may not be specific to gender or race. But sexual harassment and assaulting are very serious.

by bradhe 6y ago

myroon5 6y ago

Unfortunately, de-leveling seems common as well

throwaay 6y ago

We don't know the poolsize for any of these numbers. Hope the lawsuit goes into that. Would be good to see numbers for all ethnicities as a comparison. For eg: how many asian people at amazon vs directors? Offhand, I think you will see that there are fewer asian directors when considering the total asian pop at amazon vs white. Is that a problem? From my anecdotal experience, I just don't see too many black or latino people in tech companies so I would assume this is partly a pipeline issue which we can address at the correct spot in the funnel rather than bringing in token black l8s. Otherwise the next spate of articles will say "Black L8s fired at higher rates than other ethnicites". Also, re-levelling during interviews is common at Amazon: just because you applied for a position doesnt mean there are enough data-points in the interview that support you getting that position (esp at L6+ level), but we may think you are "amazonian" enough to be extended an offer with re-level. What probably happened is the candidate was re-leveled, then was setup for success by being provided multiple opportunities to prove themselves, which took a few years. This also makes sense because a promo-doc requires consistent evidence of performing at the next level. Now, a senior manager should know all this so A) this is a bad faith lawsuit driven by entitlement or, B) she decided that this was a big enough problem to burn a few bridges. I'm interested to see what data the lawsuit dredges up.

bradhe 6y ago
I'm wondering how clear it was to her about the re-level when she accepted the offer. I'm sure it must have been pretty clear? I agree with what you're supposing in terms of how it likely went down. I don't think that would really qualify as "doing the work of another level" or whatever they originally said. Great insight, too, on the subsequent headline if Amazon just starts recruiting black candidates willy-nilly.
- throwaay 6y ago
  When you accept the offer, the recruiter should have messaged it similar to what I said (ie: you have been re-leveled at l6). Also, comp ranges are very different + you can easily see what level you are. Failing that, after accepting the offer and doing some interviews + performance management as an L7, the situation would have been clear.
philwelch 6y ago
> From my anecdotal experience, I just don't see too many black or latino people in tech companies so I would assume this is partly a pipeline issue which we can address at the correct spot in the funnel rather than bringing in token black l8s. The thing is, this wasn’t a tech role. It was in “public policy” which I take to mean lobbying, and her previous experience was as a staffer to a US Senator. So her career is in politics rather than tech. The other thing is that suing a broadly unpopular company for discrimination isn’t really going to be a career limiting move. Most companies settle most lawsuits, so you get to put on your resume that you successfully and publicly sued a big unpopular company for discrimination. But maybe I’m just being cynical about people who go into professional politics.

shostack 6y ago

Drawing conclusions on org size based on number of job postings at big companies doesn't always tell you much. Many postings for the same role are common either because they may be testing different descriptions to see what gets quality candidates, have a general pipeline they try to keep filled, or both.

ksec 6y ago

> From the start, she alleges, she was "de-leveled"—hired at a position below the one for which she applied and for which she was qualified—and undercompensated as a result. Underpaying Black employees through de-leveling is routine at Amazon, the suit (PDF) alleges. Unpopular opinion. Underpaying, de-leveling, and under compensated is pretty much the norm in all organisations and across all industries. I would actually argue that is the problem because of ALL HR and Recruiters. ( Sorry I have never met any good one ) So without lots of evidence it may not be specific to gender or race. But sexual harassment and assaulting are very serious.