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| How else do you propose to have a distributed ledger that is resistant to inflation? A deflationary distributed ledger has yet to prove itself as having any

| How else do you propose to have a distributed ledger that is resistant to inflation? A deflationary distributed ledger has yet to prove itself as having any kind of real utility in the first place.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
Its got utility to the people who use it, which is what matters.
- heterodoxxed 6y ago
  A speculative store of value is not utility. Everybody gave up on it as a currency years ago.
  - solveit 6y ago
    A speculative store of value that everyone has coordinated upon is utility, and this has little to do with the quality of the underlying technology. The fact remains that I can pay merchants of varying degreees of shadiness in BTC much easier than I can send them a wire transfer. Now, you might not think this is good for the world, but it certainly is utility.
    - heterodoxxed 6y ago
      | pay merchants of varying degreees of shadiness Why use BTC instead of an anonymized crypto like Monero?
      - solveit 6y ago
        Because BTC is what they take. The coordination is more important than the tech. Granted, this is only because I don't patronize the super illegal Go To Jail Go Directly To Jail Do Not Pass Go type of merchants, but the point stands. If you just need unfreezable funds and pseudonymity, not total cryptographically secured anonymity, you'll use Bitcoin instead of a dozen better methods (which are all crypto anyway, so wouldn't really count as a point against crypto, just BTC) because everyone else is using it.
        heterodoxxed 6y ago
        So it's utility is for sketchy (but not too sketchy!) merchants in which a much cheaper wire transfer or free visa/mc payment would be unacceptable, but not illegal because it's a permanent public record of the transaction. Got it.
        solveit 6y ago
        I mean, yes, they exist. And the public record is fine because you just create a new address for every transaction and cash out. Just because phone companies keep a record of who's calling who doesn't mean phones aren't useful for crime. You just use a burner phone in the full knowledge that the police can track you down, but won't because you're small fish doing minor crime.
        heterodoxxed 6y ago
        That seems like so small of a market as to be virtually nonexistent. How much would you say you spend on these markets in a month?
        solveit 6y ago
        To take one example, the global counterfeit brand market is worth trillions. They don't trade exclusively or even mainly in BTC (mostly you'd sell with physical cash), but they do use it for the reasons I mentioned above.
        heterodoxxed 6y ago
        That seems extremely niche. But I was asking how much you specifically spend per month in this way.
  - wonderwonder 6y ago
    To be fair that argument could be made about any speculative asset. Art, classic cars, watches, etc. With btc currently the barrier to entry is lower. I can buy some satohis for a few bucks in hopes that they appreciate in value. I cant buy a piece of a Picasso or a Rolex. It is a speculative investment much like those, just one that has a wider audience.
    - heterodoxxed 6y ago
      So is it a speculative investment or is it a currency or is it a groundbreaking technology with uses apart from either?
      - wonderwonder 6y ago
        For me its a speculative investment. For others your answer may vary. Doesn't really matter though, no one is buying it with an expectation that it wont appreciate so it can be a currency and a groundbreaking technology while still being a speculative investment.
        heterodoxxed 6y ago
        It seems to me that it's a speculative investment for almost everyone, because the case for anything else is extraordinarily weak. And the case for it as a speculative investment is based on the other cases.
fredfoobar 6y ago
> deflationary distributed ledger you just mentioned the utility right there. Is this a trick question? Maybe you forgot "censorship resistant". I know paypal works for you or something, but not everybody has that luxury you know.
- heterodoxxed 6y ago
  What use is a deflationary distributed ledger to anyone? We've had 12 years of Bitcoin and no killer app for a reason. It's simply not a useful technology.
  - ric2b 6y ago
    What's the killer app of PayPal? Let's see how easy this game is to play, now I only need to claim that any advantages you bring up are either irrelevant or not unique to PayPal. At least that's how every argument against Bitcoin usually goes.

| How else do you propose to have a distributed ledger that is resistant to inflation? A deflationary distributed ledger has yet to prove itself as having any kind of real utility in the first place.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

Its got utility to the people who use it, which is what matters.

heterodoxxed 6y ago
A speculative store of value is not utility. Everybody gave up on it as a currency years ago.
- solveit 6y ago
  A speculative store of value that everyone has coordinated upon is utility, and this has little to do with the quality of the underlying technology. The fact remains that I can pay merchants of varying degreees of shadiness in BTC much easier than I can send them a wire transfer. Now, you might not think this is good for the world, but it certainly is utility.
  - heterodoxxed 6y ago
    | pay merchants of varying degreees of shadiness Why use BTC instead of an anonymized crypto like Monero?
    - solveit 6y ago
      Because BTC is what they take. The coordination is more important than the tech. Granted, this is only because I don't patronize the super illegal Go To Jail Go Directly To Jail Do Not Pass Go type of merchants, but the point stands. If you just need unfreezable funds and pseudonymity, not total cryptographically secured anonymity, you'll use Bitcoin instead of a dozen better methods (which are all crypto anyway, so wouldn't really count as a point against crypto, just BTC) because everyone else is using it.
      - heterodoxxed 6y ago
        So it's utility is for sketchy (but not too sketchy!) merchants in which a much cheaper wire transfer or free visa/mc payment would be unacceptable, but not illegal because it's a permanent public record of the transaction. Got it.
        solveit 6y ago
        I mean, yes, they exist. And the public record is fine because you just create a new address for every transaction and cash out. Just because phone companies keep a record of who's calling who doesn't mean phones aren't useful for crime. You just use a burner phone in the full knowledge that the police can track you down, but won't because you're small fish doing minor crime.
        heterodoxxed 6y ago
        That seems like so small of a market as to be virtually nonexistent. How much would you say you spend on these markets in a month?
        solveit 6y ago
        To take one example, the global counterfeit brand market is worth trillions. They don't trade exclusively or even mainly in BTC (mostly you'd sell with physical cash), but they do use it for the reasons I mentioned above.
        heterodoxxed 6y ago
        That seems extremely niche. But I was asking how much you specifically spend per month in this way.
- wonderwonder 6y ago
  To be fair that argument could be made about any speculative asset. Art, classic cars, watches, etc. With btc currently the barrier to entry is lower. I can buy some satohis for a few bucks in hopes that they appreciate in value. I cant buy a piece of a Picasso or a Rolex. It is a speculative investment much like those, just one that has a wider audience.
  - heterodoxxed 6y ago
    So is it a speculative investment or is it a currency or is it a groundbreaking technology with uses apart from either?
    - wonderwonder 6y ago
      For me its a speculative investment. For others your answer may vary. Doesn't really matter though, no one is buying it with an expectation that it wont appreciate so it can be a currency and a groundbreaking technology while still being a speculative investment.
      - heterodoxxed 6y ago
        It seems to me that it's a speculative investment for almost everyone, because the case for anything else is extraordinarily weak. And the case for it as a speculative investment is based on the other cases.

fredfoobar 6y ago

> deflationary distributed ledger you just mentioned the utility right there. Is this a trick question? Maybe you forgot "censorship resistant". I know paypal works for you or something, but not everybody has that luxury you know.

heterodoxxed 6y ago
What use is a deflationary distributed ledger to anyone? We've had 12 years of Bitcoin and no killer app for a reason. It's simply not a useful technology.
- ric2b 6y ago
  What's the killer app of PayPal? Let's see how easy this game is to play, now I only need to claim that any advantages you bring up are either irrelevant or not unique to PayPal. At least that's how every argument against Bitcoin usually goes.