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> It all seems so crazy to me, but this ship has long sailed. Nope. And it's why Svelte is something that I've been hard adopting because it looks the closest

> It all seems so crazy to me, but this ship has long sailed. Nope. And it's why Svelte is something that I've been hard adopting because it looks the closest to old-school JS/CSS/HTML while still bringing some of the same capabilities over that I love from React and VueJS. It also runs without a VDOM or a constantly running event loop - both things are incredibly attractive to me. Although it's not a perfect solution (nothing is) I would strongly suggest you checking into Svelte as it looks more like traditional web development vs. highly complex Webpack + TS + React + eslint + Babel etc etc-based development. The ship hasn't sailed. Your instincts to be weary of such a complex, constantly re-invented toolchain to get traditional development tasks accomplished are a natural response to the craziness that these tools bring to the table.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
Svelte has been on my list to try, thanks for the reminder. I've also liked htmx (from intercooler) for keeping complexity managed. Any comparisons?
tambourine_man 6y ago
I saw the Svelte presentation a few years ago when it was released and my jaw hit the floor hard. That was some cool radical thinking. I haven't used it beyond playing with a few examples, so I can't really tell for sure if it holds up. Everything looks great on the demos. Unfortunately it hasn't caught on, though it maybe be too early to call.
- pknopf 6y ago
  Too early to call. Wait until Typescript is properly supported.
  - lhorie 6y ago
    That happened like half a year ago[0] [0] https://svelte.dev/blog/svelte-and-typescript https://svelte.dev/blog/svelte-and-typescript
- Tade0 6y ago
  Definitely too early to call, but it is making waves already: https://2020.stateofjs.com/en-US/technologies/front-end-frameworks/ https://2020.stateofjs.com/en-US/technologies/front-end-fram...
freeopinion 6y ago
I really, really hate the JS toolchains like "Webpack + TS + React + eslint + Babel etc etc" that you mentioned. I rather like Svelte. But honesty requires that we recognize that Svelte also uses Webpack/Rollup + TS + Svelte etc etc. I like the idea of Snowpack. But if A.svelte and B.svelte both use C.svelte, Snowpack has to do a lot of redundant work to provide A.js and B.js with Svelte.js and C.js all converted again and again from ts then baked into both A.js and B.js. That's a lot of server work and a lot of client work and a lot of network work. So you still want a webpack or rollup or what have you to bundle and tree-shake and codesplit for production. I don't know why this irritates me more than running any of my other code through a compiler. But it always has.
- folkhack 6y ago
  I've been running Svelte with esbuild and it's incredible, and doesn't bring along all of the above overhead. I get to target modern browser stacks which is a huge plus that keeps a large amount of complexity out of my toolchain. Mileage will vary =)
no_wizard 6y ago
what runs with a 'constantly running event loop' exactly? I can't think of a single framework that does this, (its neigh impossible, actually, it'll just lock up your browser) Svelte is cool, but this statement needs some serious proof

mixmastamyk 6y ago

Svelte has been on my list to try, thanks for the reminder. I've also liked htmx (from intercooler) for keeping complexity managed. Any comparisons?

tambourine_man 6y ago

I saw the Svelte presentation a few years ago when it was released and my jaw hit the floor hard. That was some cool radical thinking. I haven't used it beyond playing with a few examples, so I can't really tell for sure if it holds up. Everything looks great on the demos. Unfortunately it hasn't caught on, though it maybe be too early to call.

pknopf 6y ago
Too early to call. Wait until Typescript is properly supported.
- lhorie 6y ago
  That happened like half a year ago[0] [0] https://svelte.dev/blog/svelte-and-typescript https://svelte.dev/blog/svelte-and-typescript
Tade0 6y ago
Definitely too early to call, but it is making waves already: https://2020.stateofjs.com/en-US/technologies/front-end-frameworks/ https://2020.stateofjs.com/en-US/technologies/front-end-fram...

freeopinion 6y ago

I really, really hate the JS toolchains like "Webpack + TS + React + eslint + Babel etc etc" that you mentioned. I rather like Svelte. But honesty requires that we recognize that Svelte also uses Webpack/Rollup + TS + Svelte etc etc. I like the idea of Snowpack. But if A.svelte and B.svelte both use C.svelte, Snowpack has to do a lot of redundant work to provide A.js and B.js with Svelte.js and C.js all converted again and again from ts then baked into both A.js and B.js. That's a lot of server work and a lot of client work and a lot of network work. So you still want a webpack or rollup or what have you to bundle and tree-shake and codesplit for production. I don't know why this irritates me more than running any of my other code through a compiler. But it always has.

folkhack 6y ago
I've been running Svelte with esbuild and it's incredible, and doesn't bring along all of the above overhead. I get to target modern browser stacks which is a huge plus that keeps a large amount of complexity out of my toolchain. Mileage will vary =)

no_wizard 6y ago

what runs with a 'constantly running event loop' exactly? I can't think of a single framework that does this, (its neigh impossible, actually, it'll just lock up your browser) Svelte is cool, but this statement needs some serious proof