4 ms·

> Berlin can't grow forever That's not self-evident to me. Why not?

ben_w 6y ago
Germany is a federal system, Berlin is one of the (city-)states within it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany
- germanier 6y ago
  It's not like this is a hard border. It's completely feasible to live outside its limits. Sure, that's not technically Berlin but for all purposes regarding the housing market it is.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Not quite. If I understand right (as a recent-ish migrant to Germany, I expect to have half an understanding at best), different states have laws and slightly different taxes. Not as much so as American states, but perhaps more like Newark vs. NYC than Cupertino vs. Sunnyvale.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Okay, but suppose I got a job in Berlin - why would I have to live in Berlin proper as opposed to some place out side of Berlin? What is stopping me from getting a place just outside of the Berlin limits?
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Stopping? Nothing, though public transport prices go up and travel times take longer. How much depends how far out, of course.
    - germanier 6y ago
      The difference in taxes is zero or negligible for almost all persons (income tax, VAT, etc. is exactly the same – dog tax probably is the highest difference). Corporations pay less taxes outside city limits. The most relevant law I can think of is that if you live outside the city limits you might not be able to send your kids to a school in Berlin.
- codeflo 6y ago
  When talking about city growth, population dynamics and long timescales, do you really believe those administrative boundaries matter in any practical sense?
- leetcrew 6y ago
  okay, so it can't grow out. looking at pictures of the city, it certainly looks like it has room to grow up.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Up is expensive, from what I hear.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Paris is one of the densest city in the world (overall, there are denser areas) despite having a cap at 6 floors on building height. (I might be off by a floor or so) At that height the cheapest building technologies* still apply and up is not that expensive. Now going up to 200 floors is very expensive. However on a per unit area it is only a few times what the cheapest building style* is. So it does require more expensive rent, but not that much more expensive, and as rent gets expensive you expect apartment sizes to fall to balance some of it out. * cheapest that can meet reasonable building codes. I'm ignoring the uninsulated, fire-prone shacks you see in poor countries which are cheaper by far.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        On that basis, I’d be interested to see more grand buildings like those on Frankfurter Tor. While the insides of Soviet era buildings are the targets of German jokes [0], the outsides are grand, and they are more than 6 levels high. [0] IIRC “if you come home to find your wife has changed her hair and redecorated, you went into the wrong apartment”, according to the DDR museum. I’m sure it lost something in the translation.
        sokoloff 6y ago
        That's interesting that Soviet era buildings there have a reputation for being grand outside. In Prague, buildings built in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic era have a (well-deserved, IMO) reputation for being brutish, simply, and inelegantly built on the outside, especially as compared to the beautiful buildings from the earlier eras.

Germany is a federal system, Berlin is one of the (city-)states within it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany

germanier 6y ago
It's not like this is a hard border. It's completely feasible to live outside its limits. Sure, that's not technically Berlin but for all purposes regarding the housing market it is.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Not quite. If I understand right (as a recent-ish migrant to Germany, I expect to have half an understanding at best), different states have laws and slightly different taxes. Not as much so as American states, but perhaps more like Newark vs. NYC than Cupertino vs. Sunnyvale.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Okay, but suppose I got a job in Berlin - why would I have to live in Berlin proper as opposed to some place out side of Berlin? What is stopping me from getting a place just outside of the Berlin limits?
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Stopping? Nothing, though public transport prices go up and travel times take longer. How much depends how far out, of course.
  - germanier 6y ago
    The difference in taxes is zero or negligible for almost all persons (income tax, VAT, etc. is exactly the same – dog tax probably is the highest difference). Corporations pay less taxes outside city limits. The most relevant law I can think of is that if you live outside the city limits you might not be able to send your kids to a school in Berlin.
codeflo 6y ago
When talking about city growth, population dynamics and long timescales, do you really believe those administrative boundaries matter in any practical sense?
leetcrew 6y ago
okay, so it can't grow out. looking at pictures of the city, it certainly looks like it has room to grow up.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Up is expensive, from what I hear.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Paris is one of the densest city in the world (overall, there are denser areas) despite having a cap at 6 floors on building height. (I might be off by a floor or so) At that height the cheapest building technologies* still apply and up is not that expensive. Now going up to 200 floors is very expensive. However on a per unit area it is only a few times what the cheapest building style* is. So it does require more expensive rent, but not that much more expensive, and as rent gets expensive you expect apartment sizes to fall to balance some of it out. * cheapest that can meet reasonable building codes. I'm ignoring the uninsulated, fire-prone shacks you see in poor countries which are cheaper by far.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      On that basis, I’d be interested to see more grand buildings like those on Frankfurter Tor. While the insides of Soviet era buildings are the targets of German jokes [0], the outsides are grand, and they are more than 6 levels high. [0] IIRC “if you come home to find your wife has changed her hair and redecorated, you went into the wrong apartment”, according to the DDR museum. I’m sure it lost something in the translation.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        That's interesting that Soviet era buildings there have a reputation for being grand outside. In Prague, buildings built in the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic era have a (well-deserved, IMO) reputation for being brutish, simply, and inelegantly built on the outside, especially as compared to the beautiful buildings from the earlier eras.