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> Sour grapes syndrome is a result of pride, I think. Or maybe it comes from people who have read an Econo101 textbook and who have spent a lot of time trying

> Sour grapes syndrome is a result of pride, I think. Or maybe it comes from people who have read an Econo101 textbook and who have spent a lot of time trying to explain a crowd of Bitcoin enthusiasts why their reasoning is wrong but no one has been listening to them so far so they are bored. Back in the time I used to spend my days on a forum about Economics. Every other week there was a random guy who signed up just to explain us his grand new theory about money. It seems that tech has enabled a grand new theory about money to be implemented. That does not make it less true that money does not have magical properties and bitcoin will not create a new world order.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
> That does not make it less true that money does not have magical properties and bitcoin will not create a new world order. Is anyone really claiming that? The OP's post doesn't seem to be in this spirit anyway. It's more like "Bitcoin has true usefulness, it will keep some meaningful value for a long time, enable other use cases that didn't even exist before.". Nobody is saying that it is going to replace all other forms of money.
- toto444 6y ago
  > Nobody is saying that it is going to replace all other forms of money. To be a money it somehow has to. What is the value of a dollar ? The set of goods you can buy with a dollar. As long as the value of a bitcoin is expressed in another currency that is weird to call it a money.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    The value of every currency is expressed in other currencies. How else would you do it? Are you saying there is nothing in existence which can really be considered "money" except maybe the US dollar?
    - toto444 6y ago
      If suddenly every land on Earth but the UK is flooded, £1 will still have a value : the set of goods you can buy with £1.
      - shawnz 6y ago
        How is that different from Bitcoins? If suddenly every land on Earth but one is flooded, and some people there happen to use Bitcoins (in addition to their other assets, probably), Bitcoins will still have a value too. Same with gold and everything else besides the fiat currencies of the sank countries.
    - lottin 6y ago
      The value of a currency is expressed in purchasing power. Exchange rates are prices of currencies in terms of other currencies, they don't tell us anything about purchasing power.
      - shawnz 6y ago
        Sure, the actual utility of the currency might be best measured with purchasing power and not exchange rates. Same with Bitcoin or anything else, though.
  - hfsp 6y ago
    There is a lot of conflation in btc threads between store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account. You are referring to unit of account. https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/bitcoin-as-a-store-of-value-unit-of-account-and-medium-of-exchange/ https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/bitcoin-as-a-store-of-...
ballofrubber 6y ago
Would you care to share your Econo101 knowledge? I'm not an economist, but nothing has convinced me yet that bitcoin is not the best form of money.
- boringg 6y ago
  Um transaction costs alone make it not the best use of money. It isn't widely used for goods that you would want to use on a day to day basis / the transaction costs of using it / energy use for bitcoin are some of the low hanging counters to why it isn't the best form of widely used currency. Are those things that can change over time? Certainly - but it hasn't happened yet.
  - ballofrubber 6y ago
    These low hanging counters have been discussed over a lot. Transaction cost is pretty low in multiple views: - You can globally settle billions of dollars worth of bitcoin for less than 10$ [0] - FIAT Settlements between banks is a complicated and non-auditable process, which is internationally speaking also very slow - You can build layers on top of bitcoin, i.e. the Lightning Network or liquid, which reduces transaction costs and time by a lot (sub cent range in the lightning network) Energy usage is not tied to transaction throughput. It is vital to be very high in the future, as it secures this global and auditable settlement network. Mining is a very competitive business. Renewable and unused energy IS the cheapest energy available (without govt. subsidies), thus the most competitive miners will use them. Mining also "subsidizes" research in cheap energy, as it gives you a competitive advantage. [0] https://twitter.com/CoreFeeHelper/status/1366787351985287168 https://twitter.com/CoreFeeHelper/status/1366787351985287168
    - boringg 6y ago
      Im answering his question why bitcoin is not the best use of money: (1) Most people don't settle on large volumes (thats typically banks/states/institutionals) so small volumes have a high cost percentage making it not a good daily driver. The fact that there is any transaction cost makes it challenging to work with as a daily money vehicle for consumers. (2) It requires energy to exist and keep a ledger, it also requires energy to mine. Your comment on renewable energy isn't accurate sadly and unused energy works only if you can get access to it which isn't universally available. In some jurisdictions renewable energy beats on price but this is largely on huge projects that are bid into utility grids (At least in North America). It will get there but still needs more time. I don't see how mining subsidizes research in cheap energy. Understand they have been debated ad nasueum and the reason is that they haven't really passed muster for the use case we are talking about. Don't equate my arguments as saying bitcoin is bad - it doesn't have a good universal use case for money and it does have negative environmental benefits associated with it.
phroobster 6y ago
Someone reading an econ101 textbook and immediately deciding that Bitcoin is unnecessary is an amusing example of Dunning-Kruger :)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jakeva 6y ago
I'm close with a person holding a Ph.D. in economics (close as in she's my girlfriend), and she would absolutely enjoy arguing with you.
thebean11 6y ago
Do you really think it's feasible everyone else is simply missing some entry level economics knowledge? That's more likely than you missing something, or misunderstanding that very econ 101 knowledge? I took more than 101, and not sure what you refer to there.
hfsp 6y ago
>Or maybe it comes from people who have read an Econo101 textbook and who have spent a lot of time trying to explain a crowd of Bitcoin enthusiasts why their reasoning is wrong The market decides. Not an economics "expert", nor fitting btc to an arbitrary theoretical definition of money. >It seems that tech has enabled a grand new theory about money to be implemented. Are you aware of the Austrian school of economics?
- zepto 6y ago
  The market decided about Tulips at one point. It later changed its mind.
  - hfsp 6y ago
    If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
- Aunche 6y ago
  The market is currently deciding that Bitcoin is almost entirely a vehicle of speculation, which is exactly what economists had predicted. The Austrian school of economics is completely adverse to empirical data, which makes it functionally useless.
- lottin 6y ago
  > Austrian school of economics The only school of economic thought that is built upon the rejection of the scientific method. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology
  - hfsp 6y ago
    Have fun staying poor.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago

> That does not make it less true that money does not have magical properties and bitcoin will not create a new world order. Is anyone really claiming that? The OP's post doesn't seem to be in this spirit anyway. It's more like "Bitcoin has true usefulness, it will keep some meaningful value for a long time, enable other use cases that didn't even exist before.". Nobody is saying that it is going to replace all other forms of money.

toto444 6y ago
> Nobody is saying that it is going to replace all other forms of money. To be a money it somehow has to. What is the value of a dollar ? The set of goods you can buy with a dollar. As long as the value of a bitcoin is expressed in another currency that is weird to call it a money.
- shawnz 6y ago
  The value of every currency is expressed in other currencies. How else would you do it? Are you saying there is nothing in existence which can really be considered "money" except maybe the US dollar?
  - toto444 6y ago
    If suddenly every land on Earth but the UK is flooded, £1 will still have a value : the set of goods you can buy with £1.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      How is that different from Bitcoins? If suddenly every land on Earth but one is flooded, and some people there happen to use Bitcoins (in addition to their other assets, probably), Bitcoins will still have a value too. Same with gold and everything else besides the fiat currencies of the sank countries.
  - lottin 6y ago
    The value of a currency is expressed in purchasing power. Exchange rates are prices of currencies in terms of other currencies, they don't tell us anything about purchasing power.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      Sure, the actual utility of the currency might be best measured with purchasing power and not exchange rates. Same with Bitcoin or anything else, though.
- hfsp 6y ago
  There is a lot of conflation in btc threads between store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account. You are referring to unit of account. https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/bitcoin-as-a-store-of-value-unit-of-account-and-medium-of-exchange/ https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/bitcoin-as-a-store-of-...

ballofrubber 6y ago

Would you care to share your Econo101 knowledge? I'm not an economist, but nothing has convinced me yet that bitcoin is not the best form of money.

boringg 6y ago
Um transaction costs alone make it not the best use of money. It isn't widely used for goods that you would want to use on a day to day basis / the transaction costs of using it / energy use for bitcoin are some of the low hanging counters to why it isn't the best form of widely used currency. Are those things that can change over time? Certainly - but it hasn't happened yet.
- ballofrubber 6y ago
  These low hanging counters have been discussed over a lot. Transaction cost is pretty low in multiple views: - You can globally settle billions of dollars worth of bitcoin for less than 10$ [0] - FIAT Settlements between banks is a complicated and non-auditable process, which is internationally speaking also very slow - You can build layers on top of bitcoin, i.e. the Lightning Network or liquid, which reduces transaction costs and time by a lot (sub cent range in the lightning network) Energy usage is not tied to transaction throughput. It is vital to be very high in the future, as it secures this global and auditable settlement network. Mining is a very competitive business. Renewable and unused energy IS the cheapest energy available (without govt. subsidies), thus the most competitive miners will use them. Mining also "subsidizes" research in cheap energy, as it gives you a competitive advantage. [0] https://twitter.com/CoreFeeHelper/status/1366787351985287168 https://twitter.com/CoreFeeHelper/status/1366787351985287168
  - boringg 6y ago
    Im answering his question why bitcoin is not the best use of money: (1) Most people don't settle on large volumes (thats typically banks/states/institutionals) so small volumes have a high cost percentage making it not a good daily driver. The fact that there is any transaction cost makes it challenging to work with as a daily money vehicle for consumers. (2) It requires energy to exist and keep a ledger, it also requires energy to mine. Your comment on renewable energy isn't accurate sadly and unused energy works only if you can get access to it which isn't universally available. In some jurisdictions renewable energy beats on price but this is largely on huge projects that are bid into utility grids (At least in North America). It will get there but still needs more time. I don't see how mining subsidizes research in cheap energy. Understand they have been debated ad nasueum and the reason is that they haven't really passed muster for the use case we are talking about. Don't equate my arguments as saying bitcoin is bad - it doesn't have a good universal use case for money and it does have negative environmental benefits associated with it.

phroobster 6y ago

Someone reading an econ101 textbook and immediately deciding that Bitcoin is unnecessary is an amusing example of Dunning-Kruger :)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jakeva 6y ago

I'm close with a person holding a Ph.D. in economics (close as in she's my girlfriend), and she would absolutely enjoy arguing with you.

thebean11 6y ago

Do you really think it's feasible everyone else is simply missing some entry level economics knowledge? That's more likely than you missing something, or misunderstanding that very econ 101 knowledge? I took more than 101, and not sure what you refer to there.

hfsp 6y ago

>Or maybe it comes from people who have read an Econo101 textbook and who have spent a lot of time trying to explain a crowd of Bitcoin enthusiasts why their reasoning is wrong The market decides. Not an economics "expert", nor fitting btc to an arbitrary theoretical definition of money. >It seems that tech has enabled a grand new theory about money to be implemented. Are you aware of the Austrian school of economics?

zepto 6y ago
The market decided about Tulips at one point. It later changed its mind.
- hfsp 6y ago
  If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
Aunche 6y ago
The market is currently deciding that Bitcoin is almost entirely a vehicle of speculation, which is exactly what economists had predicted. The Austrian school of economics is completely adverse to empirical data, which makes it functionally useless.
lottin 6y ago
> Austrian school of economics The only school of economic thought that is built upon the rejection of the scientific method. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology
- hfsp 6y ago
  Have fun staying poor.