7 ms·

How will Bitcoin lead to the defunding of the US military? Can I get a specific, plausible answer that isn't some vague utopian libertarian handwave?

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
That's not the point. The point is, it hypocritical to complain about bitcoin energy consumption without also complaining about the energy, material and human deaths consumption caused by for example US military, which is in essense what is required for something like a USD as a reserve currency to function.
- SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
  Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
inter_netuser 6y ago
If Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency, the theory goes that the US would not need to involve itself in as many petrodollar wars as it does today, thus resulting in a smaller military. I don't think anyone seriously thinks Bitcoin will replace militaries completely.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  Wouldn't the US become more desperate to hold onto its influence in oil producing regions and do so with violence? don't see why "wow, everybody is starting to use BTC rather than USD for oil transactions" would lead to "guess we don't need this aircraft carrier" instead of "time for some coups to install governments who will do what we want and not switch to BTC".
  - inter_netuser 6y ago
    I don't advocate that theory. Previous transitions in reserve currency status led to literally worldwide military conflicts. May Satoshi save us all.
- spiralx 6y ago
  The petrodollar is basically a conspiracy theory - you can use dollars to buy oil priced in Euros the same way you can use Bitcoin to buy drugs priced in dollars. Iraq pricing oil in Euros would just mean they sold most of it to countries using the Euro. The importance of the role of the dollar as a reserve currency is also just an urban myth: https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/the-reserve-currency-myth-the-us-dollars-current-and-future-role-in-the-world-economy https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/the-reserve-currency-myth-t...
  - inter_netuser 6y ago
    Seems to be a fairly accepted phenomena? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling#Petrodollar_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling#Petrodol...
matvore 6y ago
If bitcoin causes the value of fiat currency to fall enough, the government will not be able to print money to fund wars. A war will require overtly billing the people for it or raising taxes. So it will be less likely the people will consent to start a war.
- lottin 6y ago
  How does, exactly, the US government print money to fund wars?
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    Without commenting on the "funding wars" part. The US leverages inflation as a taxation strategy (and doesn't really admit it). Most lay-persons don't understand it as a tax and therefore do not complain about it until they cannot afford things (housing, food, etc), and at which point the government distracts by bundling (hiding?) the inflation problem with the stagnant wage / income equality problem. Eventually (every 2 decades) minimum wage in increased to catch up to inflation. Basically the inflationary tax strategy results in the US budget getting 2 decades of "extra taxes" (burdened by the lower middle class and the working classes[1]), then a reset, and then repeat. [1] Note inflation as a tax strategy is actually a negative tax on low-interest debt holders like businesses, and home owners. It is also has a net-neutral effect on the investing class, because assets inflate proportionally. Meanwhile, credit card debt and other high-interest loans are not reduced as much (i.e. X% inflation of 19% credit card interest is a lot lower than, X% inflation of 2.5% mortgage interest).
    - lottin 6y ago
      Okay, the claim is that the US government raises funds by generating inflation, that is clear. The details are the problem. Say the US government issues a bond, some bank buys it, and eventually they sell it to the Federal Reserve. The US government has the same debt, and it seems to me that the only thing that has changed is that the bank now has cash where before it had a bond. How does this 1) create inflation and 2) is leveraged by the US government as a taxation strategy? That's what I'm asking.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago

That's not the point. The point is, it hypocritical to complain about bitcoin energy consumption without also complaining about the energy, material and human deaths consumption caused by for example US military, which is in essense what is required for something like a USD as a reserve currency to function.

SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

inter_netuser 6y ago

If Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency, the theory goes that the US would not need to involve itself in as many petrodollar wars as it does today, thus resulting in a smaller military. I don't think anyone seriously thinks Bitcoin will replace militaries completely.

UncleMeat 6y ago
Wouldn't the US become more desperate to hold onto its influence in oil producing regions and do so with violence? don't see why "wow, everybody is starting to use BTC rather than USD for oil transactions" would lead to "guess we don't need this aircraft carrier" instead of "time for some coups to install governments who will do what we want and not switch to BTC".
- inter_netuser 6y ago
  I don't advocate that theory. Previous transitions in reserve currency status led to literally worldwide military conflicts. May Satoshi save us all.
spiralx 6y ago
The petrodollar is basically a conspiracy theory - you can use dollars to buy oil priced in Euros the same way you can use Bitcoin to buy drugs priced in dollars. Iraq pricing oil in Euros would just mean they sold most of it to countries using the Euro. The importance of the role of the dollar as a reserve currency is also just an urban myth: https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/the-reserve-currency-myth-the-us-dollars-current-and-future-role-in-the-world-economy https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/the-reserve-currency-myth-t...
- inter_netuser 6y ago
  Seems to be a fairly accepted phenomena? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling#Petrodollar_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling#Petrodol...

matvore 6y ago

If bitcoin causes the value of fiat currency to fall enough, the government will not be able to print money to fund wars. A war will require overtly billing the people for it or raising taxes. So it will be less likely the people will consent to start a war.

lottin 6y ago
How does, exactly, the US government print money to fund wars?
- yazaddaruvala 6y ago
  Without commenting on the "funding wars" part. The US leverages inflation as a taxation strategy (and doesn't really admit it). Most lay-persons don't understand it as a tax and therefore do not complain about it until they cannot afford things (housing, food, etc), and at which point the government distracts by bundling (hiding?) the inflation problem with the stagnant wage / income equality problem. Eventually (every 2 decades) minimum wage in increased to catch up to inflation. Basically the inflationary tax strategy results in the US budget getting 2 decades of "extra taxes" (burdened by the lower middle class and the working classes[1]), then a reset, and then repeat. [1] Note inflation as a tax strategy is actually a negative tax on low-interest debt holders like businesses, and home owners. It is also has a net-neutral effect on the investing class, because assets inflate proportionally. Meanwhile, credit card debt and other high-interest loans are not reduced as much (i.e. X% inflation of 19% credit card interest is a lot lower than, X% inflation of 2.5% mortgage interest).
  - lottin 6y ago
    Okay, the claim is that the US government raises funds by generating inflation, that is clear. The details are the problem. Say the US government issues a bond, some bank buys it, and eventually they sell it to the Federal Reserve. The US government has the same debt, and it seems to me that the only thing that has changed is that the bank now has cash where before it had a bond. How does this 1) create inflation and 2) is leveraged by the US government as a taxation strategy? That's what I'm asking.