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Here me out. What if it was the only way to defund the US military? Would you be interested then? Why do we waste so much energy building killing machines? Why

Here me out. What if it was the only way to defund the US military? Would you be interested then? Why do we waste so much energy building killing machines? Why is there not a daily hackernews thread complaining about the energy consumption of the US military? Because it’s a necessary to ensure you can buy and sell things when you want to.

neatze 6y ago
> Why do we waste so much energy building killing machines? In analogy, it is same reasons why we lock our doors and don't leave keys in parked car. Do you seriously assume that some nations and some organization, do not, actively seek, how to take things that do not belong to them ?
ben_w 6y ago
If that was the argument, I would ask in response: if it could do that, why would the combined vested interests of the US military-industrial lot allow Bitcoin to succeed? It’s not beyond the reach of governments to ban unwanted trade, and even though bans are not magic, even a half-arsed enforcement of such a ban is enough to prevent a currency becoming endemic.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  > It’s not beyond the reach of governments to ban unwanted trade Yeah, right, it worked so well for alcohol... It DOES (/s) work so well for drugs in the US right now... And hey imagine whether it's easier or harder to ban something that doesn't take any physical space in your suitcase and can be transacted with only internet connection.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Did anyone in Prohibition USA purchase a house or car or pay their bills with a literal barrel of whiskey? """and even though bans are not magic, even a half-arsed enforcement of such a ban is enough to prevent a currency becoming endemic."""
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    You’re saying Bitcoin will never be mainstream if it’s not accepted by a militarized government.
    - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
      Basically we are talking about the world's reserve currency becoming a denationalized currency. To be "mainstream" the denationalized currency will need to be defended by the militaries of the Euro-zone, US, India, China, and Russia (likely one after the other in this order). Only the US is incentivized to have USD be the world's reserve currency. Meanwhile, 7 BB people around the world prefer a denationalized reserve currency, countries will prefer to interact with each other with a less trackable currency (e.g. Iran and the current sanctions), and based on the usage of tax loopholes by every multi-national company (e.g. FB, Apple, Google) every business will prefer transacting in less trackable currency (especially with crypto-coin tumblers). This demand for a denationalized reserve currency will be supplied by some crypto-coin (maybe BTC, maybe something else). FWIW, I don't think having a "less trackable currency" is a "good thing", I'm just saying there are large organizations that benefit from it financially and therefore it will exist. Frankly once the S&P companies purchase enough BTC (e.g. TSLA, Square, etc), a BTC 51% attack will need to be defended against by the US military to ensure national stability. If BTC (or any crypto-coin) can hit "too big to fail" in the US, the rest of the world's militaries will all build a defense strategy around BTC mining. As as consequence, cheaper energy will also be an investment into national security. There are still more problems with BTC specifically, like "slow transactions" but as may here have said, we can either use a geographically sharded blockchain (e.g. BTC-California, BTC-USD, BTC-CAD, BTC-RUP), where each shard allows fast transactions, and slow reconciliation, or we will just leverage credit for fast transactions like we do today, with slow reconciliation between banks like we have today. I don't see "centralization" as a problem, because having bank accounts and credit are very useful as an individual (as individuals will likely only transact with credit cards like we do today). Will BTC become "too big to fail" in the US? Unclear. Another crypto might get there first. However, there is no scenario where the world's reserve currency continues to be tied to a single nation.
      - spiralx 6y ago
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    Alcohol didn't apparently threaten to end the authority of the state.
    - Ancapistani 6y ago
      I'd actually argue that it was more of a threat to the authority of the state than Bitcoin is today. The widespread disregard of Prohibition lead directly to its repeal. Defying the state in one aspect of your life leads to defiance in other aspects.
      - almost_usual 6y ago
        Alcohol distribution was also controlled by violent criminals who you guessed it, had a strong physical force.
      - UncleMeat 6y ago
        > I'd actually argue that it was more of a threat to the authority of the state than Bitcoin is today. If that is the case, then BTC certainly isn't going to end the US military.
  - Applejinx 6y ago
    On the contrary, bitcoin mining operations can be sniffed out by their impossibly outlandish power requirements, like pot growers used to be. Increasingly, mining operations have to make special arrangements with entire power grids to suck up their energy and basically just burn it in arbitrary calculation. The scale at which this operates, and the increase over time, are both what makes up a lot of the problem, and what makes it impossible to hide. If you'd prefer a world where people value bitcoin BECAUSE due to its unpopularity and externalities, governments resort to drone striking such operations when discovered, all I can say is: well, that solves the energy wastage issue, as blown-up ASIC farms aren't good at burning energy anymore. Maybe it solves the constant devaluation against energy cost issue, too! But I think you're missing the point and looking at only the end product of the industry.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      Mining doesn't have to happen in the same country where you use the coin though. In order for this scenario to become a reality, many governments would have to collaborate to make mining infeasible. But they would be incentivized to not collaborate so they can instead tax their miners and get the profits for themselves.
- dntrkv 6y ago
  One possible reason is that by the time they realize it's a threat, it will be too late.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Given what governments worldwide have done with currencies in the past, I think you’re underestimating their capacity and how much they care about the functioning of their currency. If you’ll excuse my admittedly also-naïve wargaming of their responses: “Dear ISPs, this is the government. That stuff you do to block piracy and illegal porn? Do that for bitcoin.” “Dear Banks, this is the government. Purchase of bitcoin is now a federal offence. Tell us if anyone tries to exchange them for money.” “Dear The Power Company, this is a government order. Turn off power to these properties who are engaged in illegal Bitcoin mining.” “Dear everyone, this is the government. Your taxes can only be paid in dollars, not in bitcoin.” (Not that I would say such things will never happen, only that I expect America to become irrelevant on the world stage before it happens; and even in the most extreme USSR-mimicking scenario that is not something I expect before 2041).
    - dntrkv 6y ago
      As I mentioned in my reply above, I think the way it can work is if it grows exponentially, and the US government doesn't respond in time at which point not using crypto will put the US at a disadvantage. Crypto has the unique ability to spread across borders with ease, no other currency has had this ability. So I think it's a pretty unique scenario in that case. Another scenario is if it grows slowly amongst the countries that have unstable currencies. Slowly it takes over the USD as the world currency. At a certain point, the US would have to allow it to participate in that economy.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Nations with bad currencies and mismanaged economies sometimes switch to the USD. Such nations collectively switching to a different currency like the Euro or the Yuan is way more plausible than switching to Bitcoin; and not only do none of the USA, the Eurozone, nor China have economic policies compatible with giving up direct control of inflation, the usefulness of a shared single currency isn’t enough to outweigh the political costs for the UK to use the Euro (famously), or South Korea to use the Yuan, or Canada to use USD. Money in the scale of governments isn’t like money on the scale of individuals. For governments, money isn’t even like it is for the richest individuals, different as it is between the rich and normal people.
DennisP 6y ago
Anything Bitcoin can do, we can do now with proof-of-stake currencies at a tiny fraction of the energy consumption.
- space_rock 6y ago
  No theory to backup this claim. We had what is now rebranded PoS well before Bitcoin and it never and never will solve the problems PoW solves
- mindcandy 6y ago
  That is true only to the extent that proof of work has already been performed. You have to stake something of value or POS doesn’t work. Staking a POW coin to “mine” a new POS coin works. So does burning a POW coin to convert it to a new POS coin that can be staked for more. But, you can’t bootstrap a POS coin without leveraging proven investment from previously burned work. At this point Bitcoin and Eth have about a trillion USD of built up burned work. Is that enough to prime the pump for a POS-based world economy? I dunno. Probably?
  - pazimzadeh 6y ago
    Does this mean that Cardano (ADA) shouldn't work, because it's Proof of Stake from the beginning?
- 015a 6y ago
  That's true. So, where are those currencies in the market capitalization charts and news articles? Remember; the last time Bitcoin tried to change its mining algorithm, the democracy voted for a split. Ethereum has said they're moving from Proof of Work to Stake; I'm not surprised, given the Ethereum developers seem to abhor Work in all of its forms, including making progress on Ethereum itself, so we'll see if that actually happens in a few decades. PoS is a theory right now, with some minor market traction, but nothing to the degree of BTC or ETH. Don't levy it as a promise which absolves the environmental sins of cryptocurrency, when its so obviously unlikely to do so. Bitcoin is the zeitgeist; its actively destroying the planet; its not moving to PoS.
yerwhat01010 6y ago
How will Bitcoin lead to the defunding of the US military? Can I get a specific, plausible answer that isn't some vague utopian libertarian handwave?
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  That's not the point. The point is, it hypocritical to complain about bitcoin energy consumption without also complaining about the energy, material and human deaths consumption caused by for example US military, which is in essense what is required for something like a USD as a reserve currency to function.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
    Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- inter_netuser 6y ago
  If Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency, the theory goes that the US would not need to involve itself in as many petrodollar wars as it does today, thus resulting in a smaller military. I don't think anyone seriously thinks Bitcoin will replace militaries completely.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    Wouldn't the US become more desperate to hold onto its influence in oil producing regions and do so with violence? don't see why "wow, everybody is starting to use BTC rather than USD for oil transactions" would lead to "guess we don't need this aircraft carrier" instead of "time for some coups to install governments who will do what we want and not switch to BTC".
    - inter_netuser 6y ago
      I don't advocate that theory. Previous transitions in reserve currency status led to literally worldwide military conflicts. May Satoshi save us all.
throwaway894345 6y ago
In practice, we need to get our emissions down in the next few decades (if it's not already too late). I think retooling our energy economy is already an incredibly ambitious project, and I'm not sure we'll be able to achieve it in the designated timeframe. I certainly don't imagine us doing that and deprecating the US military in favor of Bitcoin, even if you accept the very, very bold idea that the former serves the same functions with the same efficacy as the latter. In other words, even if I was convinced that Bitcoin could replace the US military, I would still argue that we should stop Bitcoin mining until we solve the energy crisis and then take our time with a slow, thoughtful transition from military hegemony to crypto.
thrwaway2day 6y ago
Why would we need to do that, Trump lost and the good guy won. Surely the good guy who is friends with the guy who won the peace prize wouldn't be out there starting wars. No way. Our fair and independent media would tell us if that was the case surely. If not them it's not like views against that administration are removed from social media, no way.
almost_usual 6y ago
If you think the US military or any military will go away because Bitcoin you’re delusional. > Why is there not a daily hackernews thread complaining about the energy consumption of the US military? People are willing to pay a high energy cost for safety. Bitcoin doesn’t provide me any safety and it doesn’t have the strongest military in the world claiming it’s worth anything. If you think Bitcoin will topple governments be prepared for a long future of conflict and casualties. Maybe it will be worth it but I doubt it. So all in all it’s a massive energy waste thought experiment.
- as300 6y ago
  Erm, there's a good portion of the world's population (I'd say over half) that doesn't think the US military's activities support it's safety.
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    Of course that’s true, I’m talking about US citizens not the world population. What makes you think the US wouldn’t put it’s population in front of the rest of the world in a life or death war scenario?
  - whoooooo123 6y ago
    Great, let's just let current trends continue for a few decades and we can live in a world where the most powerful military belongs to China. I'm sure we'll be much safer then.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  I know the US military won't go away as long as USD is used as the world's currency. Getting off USD is a prerequisite to ending American imperialism, it's not the only thing that needs to be done by a long shot though.
  - almost_usual 6y ago
    Ending American imperialism is a massive war. It’s possible but it’s not going to happen without millions of casualties.
UncleMeat 6y ago
> What if it was the only way to defund the US military? What if the moon were made of cheese? I don't see any connection between the growth of BTC and the shrinking of military budgets or the reduction of warfare.
mdoms 6y ago
This is delusional.
user-the-name 6y ago
> What if it was the only way to defund the US military? It's not.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
Why do we "waste" so much energy building killing machines? How long do you think the USA would last as a nation if all the armies suddenly went to zero and we became complete pacifists? How long before an invasion?

neatze 6y ago

> Why do we waste so much energy building killing machines? In analogy, it is same reasons why we lock our doors and don't leave keys in parked car. Do you seriously assume that some nations and some organization, do not, actively seek, how to take things that do not belong to them ?

ben_w 6y ago

If that was the argument, I would ask in response: if it could do that, why would the combined vested interests of the US military-industrial lot allow Bitcoin to succeed? It’s not beyond the reach of governments to ban unwanted trade, and even though bans are not magic, even a half-arsed enforcement of such a ban is enough to prevent a currency becoming endemic.

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
> It’s not beyond the reach of governments to ban unwanted trade Yeah, right, it worked so well for alcohol... It DOES (/s) work so well for drugs in the US right now... And hey imagine whether it's easier or harder to ban something that doesn't take any physical space in your suitcase and can be transacted with only internet connection.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Did anyone in Prohibition USA purchase a house or car or pay their bills with a literal barrel of whiskey? """and even though bans are not magic, even a half-arsed enforcement of such a ban is enough to prevent a currency becoming endemic."""
- almost_usual 6y ago
  You’re saying Bitcoin will never be mainstream if it’s not accepted by a militarized government.
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    Basically we are talking about the world's reserve currency becoming a denationalized currency. To be "mainstream" the denationalized currency will need to be defended by the militaries of the Euro-zone, US, India, China, and Russia (likely one after the other in this order). Only the US is incentivized to have USD be the world's reserve currency. Meanwhile, 7 BB people around the world prefer a denationalized reserve currency, countries will prefer to interact with each other with a less trackable currency (e.g. Iran and the current sanctions), and based on the usage of tax loopholes by every multi-national company (e.g. FB, Apple, Google) every business will prefer transacting in less trackable currency (especially with crypto-coin tumblers). This demand for a denationalized reserve currency will be supplied by some crypto-coin (maybe BTC, maybe something else). FWIW, I don't think having a "less trackable currency" is a "good thing", I'm just saying there are large organizations that benefit from it financially and therefore it will exist. Frankly once the S&P companies purchase enough BTC (e.g. TSLA, Square, etc), a BTC 51% attack will need to be defended against by the US military to ensure national stability. If BTC (or any crypto-coin) can hit "too big to fail" in the US, the rest of the world's militaries will all build a defense strategy around BTC mining. As as consequence, cheaper energy will also be an investment into national security. There are still more problems with BTC specifically, like "slow transactions" but as may here have said, we can either use a geographically sharded blockchain (e.g. BTC-California, BTC-USD, BTC-CAD, BTC-RUP), where each shard allows fast transactions, and slow reconciliation, or we will just leverage credit for fast transactions like we do today, with slow reconciliation between banks like we have today. I don't see "centralization" as a problem, because having bank accounts and credit are very useful as an individual (as individuals will likely only transact with credit cards like we do today). Will BTC become "too big to fail" in the US? Unclear. Another crypto might get there first. However, there is no scenario where the world's reserve currency continues to be tied to a single nation.
    - spiralx 6y ago
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  Alcohol didn't apparently threaten to end the authority of the state.
  - Ancapistani 6y ago
    I'd actually argue that it was more of a threat to the authority of the state than Bitcoin is today. The widespread disregard of Prohibition lead directly to its repeal. Defying the state in one aspect of your life leads to defiance in other aspects.
    - almost_usual 6y ago
      Alcohol distribution was also controlled by violent criminals who you guessed it, had a strong physical force.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      > I'd actually argue that it was more of a threat to the authority of the state than Bitcoin is today. If that is the case, then BTC certainly isn't going to end the US military.
- Applejinx 6y ago
  On the contrary, bitcoin mining operations can be sniffed out by their impossibly outlandish power requirements, like pot growers used to be. Increasingly, mining operations have to make special arrangements with entire power grids to suck up their energy and basically just burn it in arbitrary calculation. The scale at which this operates, and the increase over time, are both what makes up a lot of the problem, and what makes it impossible to hide. If you'd prefer a world where people value bitcoin BECAUSE due to its unpopularity and externalities, governments resort to drone striking such operations when discovered, all I can say is: well, that solves the energy wastage issue, as blown-up ASIC farms aren't good at burning energy anymore. Maybe it solves the constant devaluation against energy cost issue, too! But I think you're missing the point and looking at only the end product of the industry.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    Mining doesn't have to happen in the same country where you use the coin though. In order for this scenario to become a reality, many governments would have to collaborate to make mining infeasible. But they would be incentivized to not collaborate so they can instead tax their miners and get the profits for themselves.
dntrkv 6y ago
One possible reason is that by the time they realize it's a threat, it will be too late.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Given what governments worldwide have done with currencies in the past, I think you’re underestimating their capacity and how much they care about the functioning of their currency. If you’ll excuse my admittedly also-naïve wargaming of their responses: “Dear ISPs, this is the government. That stuff you do to block piracy and illegal porn? Do that for bitcoin.” “Dear Banks, this is the government. Purchase of bitcoin is now a federal offence. Tell us if anyone tries to exchange them for money.” “Dear The Power Company, this is a government order. Turn off power to these properties who are engaged in illegal Bitcoin mining.” “Dear everyone, this is the government. Your taxes can only be paid in dollars, not in bitcoin.” (Not that I would say such things will never happen, only that I expect America to become irrelevant on the world stage before it happens; and even in the most extreme USSR-mimicking scenario that is not something I expect before 2041).
  - dntrkv 6y ago
    As I mentioned in my reply above, I think the way it can work is if it grows exponentially, and the US government doesn't respond in time at which point not using crypto will put the US at a disadvantage. Crypto has the unique ability to spread across borders with ease, no other currency has had this ability. So I think it's a pretty unique scenario in that case. Another scenario is if it grows slowly amongst the countries that have unstable currencies. Slowly it takes over the USD as the world currency. At a certain point, the US would have to allow it to participate in that economy.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Nations with bad currencies and mismanaged economies sometimes switch to the USD. Such nations collectively switching to a different currency like the Euro or the Yuan is way more plausible than switching to Bitcoin; and not only do none of the USA, the Eurozone, nor China have economic policies compatible with giving up direct control of inflation, the usefulness of a shared single currency isn’t enough to outweigh the political costs for the UK to use the Euro (famously), or South Korea to use the Yuan, or Canada to use USD. Money in the scale of governments isn’t like money on the scale of individuals. For governments, money isn’t even like it is for the richest individuals, different as it is between the rich and normal people.

DennisP 6y ago

Anything Bitcoin can do, we can do now with proof-of-stake currencies at a tiny fraction of the energy consumption.

space_rock 6y ago
No theory to backup this claim. We had what is now rebranded PoS well before Bitcoin and it never and never will solve the problems PoW solves
mindcandy 6y ago
That is true only to the extent that proof of work has already been performed. You have to stake something of value or POS doesn’t work. Staking a POW coin to “mine” a new POS coin works. So does burning a POW coin to convert it to a new POS coin that can be staked for more. But, you can’t bootstrap a POS coin without leveraging proven investment from previously burned work. At this point Bitcoin and Eth have about a trillion USD of built up burned work. Is that enough to prime the pump for a POS-based world economy? I dunno. Probably?
- pazimzadeh 6y ago
  Does this mean that Cardano (ADA) shouldn't work, because it's Proof of Stake from the beginning?
015a 6y ago
That's true. So, where are those currencies in the market capitalization charts and news articles? Remember; the last time Bitcoin tried to change its mining algorithm, the democracy voted for a split. Ethereum has said they're moving from Proof of Work to Stake; I'm not surprised, given the Ethereum developers seem to abhor Work in all of its forms, including making progress on Ethereum itself, so we'll see if that actually happens in a few decades. PoS is a theory right now, with some minor market traction, but nothing to the degree of BTC or ETH. Don't levy it as a promise which absolves the environmental sins of cryptocurrency, when its so obviously unlikely to do so. Bitcoin is the zeitgeist; its actively destroying the planet; its not moving to PoS.

yerwhat01010 6y ago

How will Bitcoin lead to the defunding of the US military? Can I get a specific, plausible answer that isn't some vague utopian libertarian handwave?

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
That's not the point. The point is, it hypocritical to complain about bitcoin energy consumption without also complaining about the energy, material and human deaths consumption caused by for example US military, which is in essense what is required for something like a USD as a reserve currency to function.
- SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
  Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
inter_netuser 6y ago
If Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency, the theory goes that the US would not need to involve itself in as many petrodollar wars as it does today, thus resulting in a smaller military. I don't think anyone seriously thinks Bitcoin will replace militaries completely.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  Wouldn't the US become more desperate to hold onto its influence in oil producing regions and do so with violence? don't see why "wow, everybody is starting to use BTC rather than USD for oil transactions" would lead to "guess we don't need this aircraft carrier" instead of "time for some coups to install governments who will do what we want and not switch to BTC".
  - inter_netuser 6y ago
    I don't advocate that theory. Previous transitions in reserve currency status led to literally worldwide military conflicts. May Satoshi save us all.

throwaway894345 6y ago

In practice, we need to get our emissions down in the next few decades (if it's not already too late). I think retooling our energy economy is already an incredibly ambitious project, and I'm not sure we'll be able to achieve it in the designated timeframe. I certainly don't imagine us doing that and deprecating the US military in favor of Bitcoin, even if you accept the very, very bold idea that the former serves the same functions with the same efficacy as the latter. In other words, even if I was convinced that Bitcoin could replace the US military, I would still argue that we should stop Bitcoin mining until we solve the energy crisis and then take our time with a slow, thoughtful transition from military hegemony to crypto.

thrwaway2day 6y ago

Why would we need to do that, Trump lost and the good guy won. Surely the good guy who is friends with the guy who won the peace prize wouldn't be out there starting wars. No way. Our fair and independent media would tell us if that was the case surely. If not them it's not like views against that administration are removed from social media, no way.

almost_usual 6y ago

If you think the US military or any military will go away because Bitcoin you’re delusional. > Why is there not a daily hackernews thread complaining about the energy consumption of the US military? People are willing to pay a high energy cost for safety. Bitcoin doesn’t provide me any safety and it doesn’t have the strongest military in the world claiming it’s worth anything. If you think Bitcoin will topple governments be prepared for a long future of conflict and casualties. Maybe it will be worth it but I doubt it. So all in all it’s a massive energy waste thought experiment.

as300 6y ago
Erm, there's a good portion of the world's population (I'd say over half) that doesn't think the US military's activities support it's safety.
- almost_usual 6y ago
  Of course that’s true, I’m talking about US citizens not the world population. What makes you think the US wouldn’t put it’s population in front of the rest of the world in a life or death war scenario?
- whoooooo123 6y ago
  Great, let's just let current trends continue for a few decades and we can live in a world where the most powerful military belongs to China. I'm sure we'll be much safer then.
solosoyokaze 6y ago
I know the US military won't go away as long as USD is used as the world's currency. Getting off USD is a prerequisite to ending American imperialism, it's not the only thing that needs to be done by a long shot though.
- almost_usual 6y ago
  Ending American imperialism is a massive war. It’s possible but it’s not going to happen without millions of casualties.

UncleMeat 6y ago

> What if it was the only way to defund the US military? What if the moon were made of cheese? I don't see any connection between the growth of BTC and the shrinking of military budgets or the reduction of warfare.

mdoms 6y ago

This is delusional.

user-the-name 6y ago

> What if it was the only way to defund the US military? It's not.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

Why do we "waste" so much energy building killing machines? How long do you think the USA would last as a nation if all the armies suddenly went to zero and we became complete pacifists? How long before an invasion?