6 ms·

In the winter I ride my bike down streets lined with cars idling because their owners don't want to ride in the cold for a few minutes. In a way I appreciate b

by dmm 6y ago

In the winter I ride my bike down streets lined with cars idling because their owners don't want to ride in the cold for a few minutes. In a way I appreciate bitcoin for its absurd and unambiguous wastefulness. It's sort of the perfect expression of consumerism, destroying the precious and irreplaceable earth for something immediately disposed of.

arbawk 6y ago
Bitcoin is the most durable money we've had, it can never be disposed of. Lost, perhaps. Energy consumption != energy production. Bitcoin is incentivizing reusable energy and moving energy to cheaper locations, further from cities. I suggest you look into how it's actually quite positive for the Earth.
- ARandumGuy 6y ago
  You know we have a limited amount of green energy production right now, right? It's not exactly green if your bitcoin mining is using wind energy, while a bunch of other stuff is stuck with coal.
  - jhoechtl 6y ago
    But it will race to cheaper energy which means using sun and wind. And the enormous surplus generated is for the bono of all of those who don't mine.
  - chmod600 6y ago
    The theory is that it provides demand for green energy, which will drive investment, technology, and expertise that can be used everywhere.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
      We know that is "the theory" We also know that this theory is really, really stupid: The kind of self-justifying idiocy that people don't come up with unless they're already deeply committed to a point of view come what may, logic and fact need not apply.
    - snicky 6y ago
      So more demand for energy means more green energy? I don't quite get the logic.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        It's not actual logic, it's more of a rationalisation of the indefensible.
      - mindcandy 6y ago
        Supply follows demand is basic economics. Buy up green energy and the suppliers will use your money to build more supply in order to expand their operations to fit the larger market.
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      Are you really going to claim that there isn't a demand for green energy already?
      - chmod600 6y ago
        No, I didn't make any claim really. I was going to add a disclaimer to my post along the lines of "not saying I believe or disbelieve this theory", but I was tired of adding disclaimers to all my posts.
        SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        Are you not able to take a position on this asinine theory?
        mindcandy 6y ago
        I'll take a position on this: > Are you really going to claim that there isn't a demand for green energy already? Is a disingenuous argument. Of course there is already demand for green energy. Meanwhile, Bitcoin increases the demand so much that people are apparently outraged by the increase.
        SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        > Of course there is already demand for green energy. Meanwhile, Bitcoin increases the demand so much that people are apparently outraged by the increase Assuming that you think you're serious: Increasing the demand for energy (and it's not "demand for green energy" it's demand for energy, period) is not, has not been and never will be a green strategy in itself. This is easy to understand, unless you choose not to. https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/03/guest-post-the-last-last-word-on-bitcoins-horrifying-energy-consumption/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/03/guest-post-t...
        mindcandy 6y ago
  - chmod600 6y ago
    "You know we have a limited amount of green energy production right now, right?" It makes no sense to talk about something being limited "right now". Limits are about the future. Can you please rephrase and clarify?
- leppr 6y ago
  There's nothing about Bitcoin that incentives mining with green energy sources more than dirty one. If coal electricity is cheaper, then bitcoin incentives burning coal. The only somewhat valid rebutals to the energy consumption arguments I know of are: - a lot of it is spare power that would be wasted otherwise (only partially true). - it uses less energy overall than governments spend protecting their fiat money's value (not that comparable since fiat can also be used as currency). - the gold industry uses a lot of energy too (but I doubt Bitcoin will reduce the energy spent on gold, it will probably just add up). EDIT: completed gold mining point following comment
  - cousin_it 6y ago
    > gold mining uses a lot of energy too (but I doubt Bitcoin will reduce the energy spent on gold mining, it will probably just add up). I'm not sure it will add up. It seems to me that different stores of value compete directly with each other, because you can store value one way or the other way.
  - Mikester 6y ago
    > gold mining uses a lot of energy too (but I doubt Bitcoin will reduce the energy spent on gold mining, it will probably just add up Why do people keep making the comparison to gold mining? It's inappropriate. Gold mining is bad for the value of gold, because it increases the amount of gold in the world. Eventually, the gold coffers on Earth will deplete and there will be no more gold mining. Bitcoin mining is necessary for the value of bitcoin, otherwise there can be no certainty of the blockchain. After most of the bitcoins get minted, the mining will still have to continue out of transaction fees. The cost of mining bitcoin needs to be compared to the cost of gold storage and handling of gold transactions, not gold mining.
    - leppr 6y ago
      You're right, amended my comment. Doesn't change the argument though.
      - Mikester 6y ago
cecja 6y ago
Every fucking time some cunt comes with a dumbass reference and it's just whataboutism.
ketamine__ 6y ago
I think people generally want to enjoy their lives. I have a friend that keeps his house at 60F in the winter. I think you can argue that I'm not going to die at those temperatures or experience hypothermia. It's quite unpleasant nonetheless. During the summer if it's hot indoors I feel miserable and tired. A lot of us could live a more simple life (i.e. no cars, fewer children). But humans are attracted to comfort and the ability to pursue their dreams.
- creaturemachine 6y ago
  Easy with the children. Having children is the one immutable thing we as living beings must protect and cherish at all costs.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    So we can't analyze the thing using the most resources?
Applejinx 6y ago
And then when an exploit finally gets worked out, OR the governments being 'replaced' wage war on bitcoin and its ilk sufficient to obliterate its value (largely based on its acceptance in whatever form and the promise that it WILL replace government currency, in time), all the destruction will have been literally for nothing. It's fiat currency combined with total energy crisis. It only retains value as long as people are willing to tolerate exponential destruction of resources by the already wealthy who can afford to bankroll any possible conversion of energy directly into 'money', no matter what workaround is required. If it becomes 'the miners run for one second every day' and there is no way to cheat, these are the people who simply take the same amount of energy they were draining before, and come up with a way to store it the whole day… that or the world blacks out every day, because miners. Bottom line is unless they get everything they want and dream of, including the eradication of government currency, the escalation will inevitably lead to a collapse where all the work becomes meaningless, valueless. All that energy will have been burned for NOTHING. We just don't know when that will happen. Bitcoin is time, all right: time running out. Don't be caught still holding it when it pops.
leppr 6y ago
> It's sort of the perfect expression of consumerism On the other hand, the finite supply/deflationary aspect of it is also the perfect antithesis of consumerism, in that it favors hoarding (spending less) instead of spending your paycheck as you get it.

by dmm 6y ago

arbawk 6y ago

Bitcoin is the most durable money we've had, it can never be disposed of. Lost, perhaps. Energy consumption != energy production. Bitcoin is incentivizing reusable energy and moving energy to cheaper locations, further from cities. I suggest you look into how it's actually quite positive for the Earth.

ARandumGuy 6y ago
You know we have a limited amount of green energy production right now, right? It's not exactly green if your bitcoin mining is using wind energy, while a bunch of other stuff is stuck with coal.
- jhoechtl 6y ago
  But it will race to cheaper energy which means using sun and wind. And the enormous surplus generated is for the bono of all of those who don't mine.
- chmod600 6y ago
  The theory is that it provides demand for green energy, which will drive investment, technology, and expertise that can be used everywhere.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
    We know that is "the theory" We also know that this theory is really, really stupid: The kind of self-justifying idiocy that people don't come up with unless they're already deeply committed to a point of view come what may, logic and fact need not apply.
  - snicky 6y ago
    So more demand for energy means more green energy? I don't quite get the logic.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
      It's not actual logic, it's more of a rationalisation of the indefensible.
    - mindcandy 6y ago
      Supply follows demand is basic economics. Buy up green energy and the suppliers will use your money to build more supply in order to expand their operations to fit the larger market.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    Are you really going to claim that there isn't a demand for green energy already?
    - chmod600 6y ago
      No, I didn't make any claim really. I was going to add a disclaimer to my post along the lines of "not saying I believe or disbelieve this theory", but I was tired of adding disclaimers to all my posts.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        Are you not able to take a position on this asinine theory?
        mindcandy 6y ago
        I'll take a position on this: > Are you really going to claim that there isn't a demand for green energy already? Is a disingenuous argument. Of course there is already demand for green energy. Meanwhile, Bitcoin increases the demand so much that people are apparently outraged by the increase.
        SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        > Of course there is already demand for green energy. Meanwhile, Bitcoin increases the demand so much that people are apparently outraged by the increase Assuming that you think you're serious: Increasing the demand for energy (and it's not "demand for green energy" it's demand for energy, period) is not, has not been and never will be a green strategy in itself. This is easy to understand, unless you choose not to. https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/03/guest-post-the-last-last-word-on-bitcoins-horrifying-energy-consumption/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/03/guest-post-t...
        mindcandy 6y ago
- chmod600 6y ago
  "You know we have a limited amount of green energy production right now, right?" It makes no sense to talk about something being limited "right now". Limits are about the future. Can you please rephrase and clarify?
leppr 6y ago
There's nothing about Bitcoin that incentives mining with green energy sources more than dirty one. If coal electricity is cheaper, then bitcoin incentives burning coal. The only somewhat valid rebutals to the energy consumption arguments I know of are: - a lot of it is spare power that would be wasted otherwise (only partially true). - it uses less energy overall than governments spend protecting their fiat money's value (not that comparable since fiat can also be used as currency). - the gold industry uses a lot of energy too (but I doubt Bitcoin will reduce the energy spent on gold, it will probably just add up). EDIT: completed gold mining point following comment
- cousin_it 6y ago
  > gold mining uses a lot of energy too (but I doubt Bitcoin will reduce the energy spent on gold mining, it will probably just add up). I'm not sure it will add up. It seems to me that different stores of value compete directly with each other, because you can store value one way or the other way.
- Mikester 6y ago
  > gold mining uses a lot of energy too (but I doubt Bitcoin will reduce the energy spent on gold mining, it will probably just add up Why do people keep making the comparison to gold mining? It's inappropriate. Gold mining is bad for the value of gold, because it increases the amount of gold in the world. Eventually, the gold coffers on Earth will deplete and there will be no more gold mining. Bitcoin mining is necessary for the value of bitcoin, otherwise there can be no certainty of the blockchain. After most of the bitcoins get minted, the mining will still have to continue out of transaction fees. The cost of mining bitcoin needs to be compared to the cost of gold storage and handling of gold transactions, not gold mining.
  - leppr 6y ago
    You're right, amended my comment. Doesn't change the argument though.
    - Mikester 6y ago

cecja 6y ago

Every fucking time some cunt comes with a dumbass reference and it's just whataboutism.

ketamine__ 6y ago

I think people generally want to enjoy their lives. I have a friend that keeps his house at 60F in the winter. I think you can argue that I'm not going to die at those temperatures or experience hypothermia. It's quite unpleasant nonetheless. During the summer if it's hot indoors I feel miserable and tired. A lot of us could live a more simple life (i.e. no cars, fewer children). But humans are attracted to comfort and the ability to pursue their dreams.

creaturemachine 6y ago
Easy with the children. Having children is the one immutable thing we as living beings must protect and cherish at all costs.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  So we can't analyze the thing using the most resources?

Applejinx 6y ago

And then when an exploit finally gets worked out, OR the governments being 'replaced' wage war on bitcoin and its ilk sufficient to obliterate its value (largely based on its acceptance in whatever form and the promise that it WILL replace government currency, in time), all the destruction will have been literally for nothing. It's fiat currency combined with total energy crisis. It only retains value as long as people are willing to tolerate exponential destruction of resources by the already wealthy who can afford to bankroll any possible conversion of energy directly into 'money', no matter what workaround is required. If it becomes 'the miners run for one second every day' and there is no way to cheat, these are the people who simply take the same amount of energy they were draining before, and come up with a way to store it the whole day… that or the world blacks out every day, because miners. Bottom line is unless they get everything they want and dream of, including the eradication of government currency, the escalation will inevitably lead to a collapse where all the work becomes meaningless, valueless. All that energy will have been burned for NOTHING. We just don't know when that will happen. Bitcoin is time, all right: time running out. Don't be caught still holding it when it pops.

leppr 6y ago

> It's sort of the perfect expression of consumerism On the other hand, the finite supply/deflationary aspect of it is also the perfect antithesis of consumerism, in that it favors hoarding (spending less) instead of spending your paycheck as you get it.