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In the US, a majority of GOP voters believe that Democrats stole the election, and that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president. Here is a pollster that is respe

In the US, a majority of GOP voters believe that Democrats stole the election, and that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president. Here is a pollster that is respected by US conservatives: https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2020/most_gop_voters_still_don_t_think_biden_was_elected_fairly https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele... Many also believe that patriotic violence is acceptable to protect the legitimacy of democracy. What kind of conversation do you have when people believe their democracy was stolen from them? There is no way at this point for the GOP to safely retreat from the position that Joe Biden is an illegitimate president. To do so would be political death.

wayoutthere 6y ago
> What kind of conversation do you have when some people believe you condone the cheating of democracy? A conversation with my friends on the left about how important gun ownership is when the right is armed to the teeth, and last summer showed the police won’t protect the left from right-wing violence. We have to do it ourselves, which means acquiring firearms and training with them. The US is headed towards a civil war. Pretty sure it’s unavoidable at this point, though it’ll take some years to play out. Biden pushing strong gun control could be enough to do it.
gurukhaider 6y ago
Have you already forgot the russia collusion fiasco, and all the "not my president" talk. Heck, even crooked shillary said Trump was illegitimate and now you think this s*it is something new. Of course half of the US won't accept Biden since why would you accept someone who deeply hates you and your values.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  Biden doesn’t hate anyone; he’s basically a republican minus the silly cult of personality. His actual political values align with the GOP from a decade ago. Anyone trying to paint him or Harris as “far leftists” is confused at best and probably trying to manipulate you. The far left has no party that represents them; the democrats pay lip service to progressive policy but aren’t willing to spend any political capital to actually do anything about it.
skinkestek 6y ago
> What kind of conversation do you have when people believe their democracy was stolen from them? Same kind we had after Trump was elected. Your account is from before 2016 so I guess you remember those threads. Seriously nasty they were, but in between all the reflexive downvoting some good answers existed. Let's try to do better this time around. PS: I dislike both parties. I just dislike hate and division even more, and I mostly don't dislike individual republicans or democrats.
throwaway19937 6y ago
Claims about electoral fraud are a regular occurrence in American politics. Democrats made similar claims about at least the 2000, 2004, and 2016 elections. Trump's claims about election fraud and the sheer number of lawsuits are an escalation but it isn't a difference in kind. Edited to add the following. The child post correctly points out that I should have mentioned Trump's inciting a violent attempt to overthrow the government. This wasn't a deliberate omission.
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  How about inciting his supporters to attempt to halt the transition of power? It seems like you conveniently forgot about that while drawing your false equivalence.
  - throwaway19937 6y ago
    That's just Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor) in action. I have edited my post to correct this omission.
- tigershark 6y ago
  No, stop spreading misinformation. I never saw in my life before Trump an American president that refused to concede and that pushed an angry mob armed with guns, handmade bombs and restraints to invade the Capitol to try to kidnap and kill the politicians, with the Vice President being the first target.
- relaxing 6y ago
  What were the fraud claims of 2004 and 2016? 2000 was a unique case, and both sides were upset with the process (rightfully so.) On the left I see claims of disenfranchisement done through legal means, which whether you agree with or not is at least something real and concrete.
  - throwaway19937 6y ago
    The 2000 election was a mess. (https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/publications/working_papers/01-17.pdf https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/publications/working_pa...) makes what I consider a credible argument that Gore was in the wrong. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_voting_controversies#Specific_issues_concerning_the_voting_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_vo...) has a pretty good summary of the issues. The voting machine claims were a big deal at the time; I remember a lot of news coverage about that the voting machine companies were owned by Republicans. I think the 2016 fraud claims were about Russian hacking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Russian_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia...). (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2018/09/11/many-democrats-think-that-the-2016-election-result-was-rigged/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2018/09/11/many-democrats-...) claims that many Democrats questioned the 2016 election. > On the left I see claims of disenfranchisement done through legal means, which whether you agree with or not is at least something real and concrete. I agree that disenfranchisement is an issue and am in favor of federal voting standards and protecting the voting rights of convicted felons.

wayoutthere 6y ago

> What kind of conversation do you have when some people believe you condone the cheating of democracy? A conversation with my friends on the left about how important gun ownership is when the right is armed to the teeth, and last summer showed the police won’t protect the left from right-wing violence. We have to do it ourselves, which means acquiring firearms and training with them. The US is headed towards a civil war. Pretty sure it’s unavoidable at this point, though it’ll take some years to play out. Biden pushing strong gun control could be enough to do it.

gurukhaider 6y ago

Have you already forgot the russia collusion fiasco, and all the "not my president" talk. Heck, even crooked shillary said Trump was illegitimate and now you think this s*it is something new. Of course half of the US won't accept Biden since why would you accept someone who deeply hates you and your values.

wayoutthere 6y ago
Biden doesn’t hate anyone; he’s basically a republican minus the silly cult of personality. His actual political values align with the GOP from a decade ago. Anyone trying to paint him or Harris as “far leftists” is confused at best and probably trying to manipulate you. The far left has no party that represents them; the democrats pay lip service to progressive policy but aren’t willing to spend any political capital to actually do anything about it.

skinkestek 6y ago

> What kind of conversation do you have when people believe their democracy was stolen from them? Same kind we had after Trump was elected. Your account is from before 2016 so I guess you remember those threads. Seriously nasty they were, but in between all the reflexive downvoting some good answers existed. Let's try to do better this time around. PS: I dislike both parties. I just dislike hate and division even more, and I mostly don't dislike individual republicans or democrats.

throwaway19937 6y ago

Claims about electoral fraud are a regular occurrence in American politics. Democrats made similar claims about at least the 2000, 2004, and 2016 elections. Trump's claims about election fraud and the sheer number of lawsuits are an escalation but it isn't a difference in kind. Edited to add the following. The child post correctly points out that I should have mentioned Trump's inciting a violent attempt to overthrow the government. This wasn't a deliberate omission.

cycrutchfield 6y ago
How about inciting his supporters to attempt to halt the transition of power? It seems like you conveniently forgot about that while drawing your false equivalence.
- throwaway19937 6y ago
  That's just Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor) in action. I have edited my post to correct this omission.
tigershark 6y ago
No, stop spreading misinformation. I never saw in my life before Trump an American president that refused to concede and that pushed an angry mob armed with guns, handmade bombs and restraints to invade the Capitol to try to kidnap and kill the politicians, with the Vice President being the first target.
relaxing 6y ago
What were the fraud claims of 2004 and 2016? 2000 was a unique case, and both sides were upset with the process (rightfully so.) On the left I see claims of disenfranchisement done through legal means, which whether you agree with or not is at least something real and concrete.
- throwaway19937 6y ago
  The 2000 election was a mess. (https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/publications/working_papers/01-17.pdf https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/publications/working_pa...) makes what I consider a credible argument that Gore was in the wrong. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_voting_controversies#Specific_issues_concerning_the_voting_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_vo...) has a pretty good summary of the issues. The voting machine claims were a big deal at the time; I remember a lot of news coverage about that the voting machine companies were owned by Republicans. I think the 2016 fraud claims were about Russian hacking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Russian_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia...). (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2018/09/11/many-democrats-think-that-the-2016-election-result-was-rigged/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2018/09/11/many-democrats-...) claims that many Democrats questioned the 2016 election. > On the left I see claims of disenfranchisement done through legal means, which whether you agree with or not is at least something real and concrete. I agree that disenfranchisement is an issue and am in favor of federal voting standards and protecting the voting rights of convicted felons.