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> by worldwide standards America actually ranges from center-right (Democrats) to far-right (Republicans) OhBoyHereWeGo.jpg It's stupid to try and condense th

> by worldwide standards America actually ranges from center-right (Democrats) to far-right (Republicans) OhBoyHereWeGo.jpg It's stupid to try and condense the political ideology of the US (or almost any nation) down to one spectrum and then try and map that onto the rest of the world when we (and the rest of the world) have a lot of ideology based on "well party X took position Y because party V had position W back in year Z and they needed to be opposite and it stuck around". What's left and right is mostly a figment of historical coincidence, not any sort of ideological consistency across a party. Shall we do a survey of immigration and gun control policies across Europe to drive the point home? If you don't like that option we can survey the social safety nets and freedom of expression in Asia.

thamidolide 6y ago
Anyone who is genuinely left wing will easily recognize that neither party in the US represents their interests.
- Delmania 6y ago
  Correct, the Democrats are a weak willed party of centrists more concerned with maintaining the status quo as opposed to implementing progressive legislation that will help people. The GOP has become a cult of personality.
  - jejones3141 6y ago
    The Democrats had their cult of personality in the Obama years.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      At least he was a better role model.
      - vinger 6y ago
        Any response that begins with at least... should remain in kindergarden. No one is a role model.
        rbanffy 6y ago
        While I agree he's far from perfect (at the very least he sanctioned a couple extrajudicial executions and a coup in my home country) he seems to be a loving husband and father, can complete sentences and expose coherent reasoning. He clearly shows signs of a very superior intelligence, never declared bankruptcy (and never bankrupted a casino!) or defrauded investors, nor cheated on every single wife he had (he's still on his first one and she is a keeper).
        juanani 6y ago
        Boy I wish my kindergarden had computers..
        vinger 6y ago
        All of those things apply to most of the population. Maybe a firefighters or a teacher or a policeman should be looked at as a hero before a politician.
        rbanffy 6y ago
        Maybe. OTOH, a politician can be a huge influence for good. Kennedy's "We chose the Moon" speech influenced generations of engineers and scientists all over the world. JFK was not a good role model and, yet, he managed to bring out the best in a whole lot of people. Humans are flawed - we can't escape that. Every human has a dark side but, it seems, some humans have a very large one.
        sanp 6y ago
        S0, what does it say about Republicans when they voted for someone who is worse than most of the population
    - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
      Not even close. No one was talking about Obama splitting the party and seeking revenge against ideological bedfellows after serving only one term.
      - AzzieElbab 6y ago
        no one but the press is talking about it now either
        yoav 6y ago
        Actually prominent republicans who have left the party over Trump are talking about it https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AB07P https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AB07P
        AzzieElbab 6y ago
        Pretty sure this not what author meant
      - jejones3141 6y ago
        From Merriam-Webster: "a situation in which a public figure (such as a political leader) is deliberately presented to the people of a country as a great person who should be admired and loved". Wikipedia mentions the use of mass media, propaganda, spectacle, etc. "to create an idealized, heroic, and worshipful image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise". I see nothing there about splitting the party and revenge. Remember these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTm5rp8r6fE&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTm5rp8r6fE&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtGr1JFCnE&feature=emb_imp_woyt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtGr1JFCnE&feature=emb_imp_...
        x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
        None of those videos are par for the course concerning how the Left views Obama.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    Neither party right now is a centrist party. They both realized that the median voter was disengaged, so they began to appeal to extremes as a way to motivate constituents to donate and vote.
- lm28469 6y ago
  > genuinely left wing What does that even mean ? Any one with half a brain will find good ideas from the far left to the far right. This "left vs right" is the dumbest thing we ever came up with. Vote and fight for ideas, not sport teams... keep the fanatism for football
  - thamidolide 6y ago
    Ideas are indeed what I'm talking about, not blindly following a party like it's a sports team.
  - loopz 6y ago
    It seems people have difficulty falling in love with ideas, but they do fall in love with sports and personality cults! To any thinking person the left-vs-right paradigm is beyond stupid, but yet, it keeps persisting, even worldwide. Actually, the parties are themselves to blame, as wrong-thinkers gets weeded out or re-educated.
  - hanche 6y ago
    On the contrary, I find the left/right spectrum a useful, if rather rough, guide to the landscape og political opinions. But of course, the devil is in the details, and you ignore them at your peril. I consider myself sort of left leaning, but I still think there are a whole lot of misguided ideas on the left, some of them flat out dangerous.
    - toolz 6y ago
      Useful to what end? So that people can easily label an idea such that tribal followers can quickly decide if they are on board? I can't think of great applications, only negative outcomes from such a simplified labeling of people and ideas.
      - Karunamon 6y ago
        Labels facilitate reasoning. Whether that reasoning turns out to be any good is a different question, but good luck speaking about broadly-held political beliefs without using some kind of term to represent it.
- soundnote 6y ago
  I don't know if "genuinely left wing" is a useful phrasing. Leftism and rightism are little more than broad, inchoate moral intuitions that are ultimately given concrete form and specific content by ideologies, philosophy and realpolitik. For example, economic class-driven socialism and wokeness will conflict with each other but both are driven by a thought pattern that's descended from Marxism. Gendercrit feminists and the woke, same thing, but both more or less want to strangle each other. On the right, you get can have Nietzsche-influenced hyperindividualist überman strivers and a kind of communitarian neo-trad thinking. Both clearly rightist, both in tension with each other. The GOP and the aforementioned localist Christian tradheads are definitely against each other, but not leftists. List goes on. I'd consider the woke ideology genuinely leftist, it's just not very genuinely pro the little guy, pro the working man. Many traditional Marxists are certainly tearing their hair out from what I've read some.
- phone8675309 6y ago
  Can you help me identify the true Scotsmen as well?
Proziam 6y ago
From my point of view as an American who has lived in Europe (Sweden, later Germany, and the UK) my framing of the US political situation is as follows: Democrats tend to be authoritarian and pro-centralization of power. Republicans tend to be anti-authoritarian and pro-decentralization. Both major parties have a long history of deep corruption. They've essentially colluded to rob the American people blind. Unfortunately, until these two corrupt institutions get together and decide to eliminate parties from our political process, the American people will have to use the threat of supporting the opposite party to get them to stay even mildly in their lane. EDIT - The voting swings on this comment are interesting.
- iSnow 6y ago
  IDK man, the last POTUS didn't seem so anti-authoritarian to me, but that might again be an outside position.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    I'm a big believer in the life experience determining the politics and Trump, Bloomberg, Biden, Pelosi, and all those other "in the urban neoliberal ruling class, spent their early careers in the urban ruling class" seem to want to solve problems using the jackboot. If you look at actual policy Bernie, AOC, Warren, etc push (i.e. not the twitter crap they pile on to for virtue points) much less authoritarians stuff despite being "further" left because they all cut their teeth serving the interests of different demographics.
    - dfgjklj4 6y ago
      >...less authoritarian... "Green New Deal" harks back to a time when our government was literally being run by a single man. >The president stayed in charge of his administration...by drawing fully on his formal and informal powers as Chief Executive; by raising goals, creating momentum, inspiring a personal loyalty, getting the best out of people...by deliberately fostering among his aides a sense of competition and a clash of wills that led to disarray, heartbreak, and anger but also set off pulses of executive energy and sparks of creativity...by handing out one job to several men and several jobs to one man, thus strengthening his own position as a court of appeals, as a depository of information, and as a tool of co-ordination; by ignoring or bypassing collective decision-making agencies, such as the Cabinet...and always by persuading, flattering, juggling, improvising, reshuffling, harmonizing, conciliating, manipulating.[149] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt#Presidency_(1933%E2%80%931945) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt#Presiden...
justin66 6y ago
> a lot of ideology based on "well party X took position Y because party V had position W back in year Z and they needed to be opposite and it stuck around". That's not ideology: that's literally not at all what "ideology" means. What you're describing is dogma, and the fact that the two are often conflated in public perception speaks to the OP's point.

thamidolide 6y ago

Anyone who is genuinely left wing will easily recognize that neither party in the US represents their interests.

Delmania 6y ago
Correct, the Democrats are a weak willed party of centrists more concerned with maintaining the status quo as opposed to implementing progressive legislation that will help people. The GOP has become a cult of personality.
- jejones3141 6y ago
  The Democrats had their cult of personality in the Obama years.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    At least he was a better role model.
    - vinger 6y ago
      Any response that begins with at least... should remain in kindergarden. No one is a role model.
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        While I agree he's far from perfect (at the very least he sanctioned a couple extrajudicial executions and a coup in my home country) he seems to be a loving husband and father, can complete sentences and expose coherent reasoning. He clearly shows signs of a very superior intelligence, never declared bankruptcy (and never bankrupted a casino!) or defrauded investors, nor cheated on every single wife he had (he's still on his first one and she is a keeper).
        juanani 6y ago
        Boy I wish my kindergarden had computers..
        vinger 6y ago
        All of those things apply to most of the population. Maybe a firefighters or a teacher or a policeman should be looked at as a hero before a politician.
        rbanffy 6y ago
        Maybe. OTOH, a politician can be a huge influence for good. Kennedy's "We chose the Moon" speech influenced generations of engineers and scientists all over the world. JFK was not a good role model and, yet, he managed to bring out the best in a whole lot of people. Humans are flawed - we can't escape that. Every human has a dark side but, it seems, some humans have a very large one.
        sanp 6y ago
        S0, what does it say about Republicans when they voted for someone who is worse than most of the population
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    Not even close. No one was talking about Obama splitting the party and seeking revenge against ideological bedfellows after serving only one term.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      no one but the press is talking about it now either
      - yoav 6y ago
        Actually prominent republicans who have left the party over Trump are talking about it https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AB07P https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AB07P
        AzzieElbab 6y ago
        Pretty sure this not what author meant
    - jejones3141 6y ago
      From Merriam-Webster: "a situation in which a public figure (such as a political leader) is deliberately presented to the people of a country as a great person who should be admired and loved". Wikipedia mentions the use of mass media, propaganda, spectacle, etc. "to create an idealized, heroic, and worshipful image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise". I see nothing there about splitting the party and revenge. Remember these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTm5rp8r6fE&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTm5rp8r6fE&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtGr1JFCnE&feature=emb_imp_woyt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtGr1JFCnE&feature=emb_imp_...
      - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
        None of those videos are par for the course concerning how the Left views Obama.
- totalZero 6y ago
  Neither party right now is a centrist party. They both realized that the median voter was disengaged, so they began to appeal to extremes as a way to motivate constituents to donate and vote.
lm28469 6y ago
> genuinely left wing What does that even mean ? Any one with half a brain will find good ideas from the far left to the far right. This "left vs right" is the dumbest thing we ever came up with. Vote and fight for ideas, not sport teams... keep the fanatism for football
- thamidolide 6y ago
  Ideas are indeed what I'm talking about, not blindly following a party like it's a sports team.
- loopz 6y ago
  It seems people have difficulty falling in love with ideas, but they do fall in love with sports and personality cults! To any thinking person the left-vs-right paradigm is beyond stupid, but yet, it keeps persisting, even worldwide. Actually, the parties are themselves to blame, as wrong-thinkers gets weeded out or re-educated.
- hanche 6y ago
  On the contrary, I find the left/right spectrum a useful, if rather rough, guide to the landscape og political opinions. But of course, the devil is in the details, and you ignore them at your peril. I consider myself sort of left leaning, but I still think there are a whole lot of misguided ideas on the left, some of them flat out dangerous.
  - toolz 6y ago
    Useful to what end? So that people can easily label an idea such that tribal followers can quickly decide if they are on board? I can't think of great applications, only negative outcomes from such a simplified labeling of people and ideas.
    - Karunamon 6y ago
      Labels facilitate reasoning. Whether that reasoning turns out to be any good is a different question, but good luck speaking about broadly-held political beliefs without using some kind of term to represent it.
soundnote 6y ago
I don't know if "genuinely left wing" is a useful phrasing. Leftism and rightism are little more than broad, inchoate moral intuitions that are ultimately given concrete form and specific content by ideologies, philosophy and realpolitik. For example, economic class-driven socialism and wokeness will conflict with each other but both are driven by a thought pattern that's descended from Marxism. Gendercrit feminists and the woke, same thing, but both more or less want to strangle each other. On the right, you get can have Nietzsche-influenced hyperindividualist überman strivers and a kind of communitarian neo-trad thinking. Both clearly rightist, both in tension with each other. The GOP and the aforementioned localist Christian tradheads are definitely against each other, but not leftists. List goes on. I'd consider the woke ideology genuinely leftist, it's just not very genuinely pro the little guy, pro the working man. Many traditional Marxists are certainly tearing their hair out from what I've read some.
phone8675309 6y ago
Can you help me identify the true Scotsmen as well?

Proziam 6y ago

From my point of view as an American who has lived in Europe (Sweden, later Germany, and the UK) my framing of the US political situation is as follows: Democrats tend to be authoritarian and pro-centralization of power. Republicans tend to be anti-authoritarian and pro-decentralization. Both major parties have a long history of deep corruption. They've essentially colluded to rob the American people blind. Unfortunately, until these two corrupt institutions get together and decide to eliminate parties from our political process, the American people will have to use the threat of supporting the opposite party to get them to stay even mildly in their lane. EDIT - The voting swings on this comment are interesting.

iSnow 6y ago
IDK man, the last POTUS didn't seem so anti-authoritarian to me, but that might again be an outside position.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  I'm a big believer in the life experience determining the politics and Trump, Bloomberg, Biden, Pelosi, and all those other "in the urban neoliberal ruling class, spent their early careers in the urban ruling class" seem to want to solve problems using the jackboot. If you look at actual policy Bernie, AOC, Warren, etc push (i.e. not the twitter crap they pile on to for virtue points) much less authoritarians stuff despite being "further" left because they all cut their teeth serving the interests of different demographics.
  - dfgjklj4 6y ago
    >...less authoritarian... "Green New Deal" harks back to a time when our government was literally being run by a single man. >The president stayed in charge of his administration...by drawing fully on his formal and informal powers as Chief Executive; by raising goals, creating momentum, inspiring a personal loyalty, getting the best out of people...by deliberately fostering among his aides a sense of competition and a clash of wills that led to disarray, heartbreak, and anger but also set off pulses of executive energy and sparks of creativity...by handing out one job to several men and several jobs to one man, thus strengthening his own position as a court of appeals, as a depository of information, and as a tool of co-ordination; by ignoring or bypassing collective decision-making agencies, such as the Cabinet...and always by persuading, flattering, juggling, improvising, reshuffling, harmonizing, conciliating, manipulating.[149] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt#Presidency_(1933%E2%80%931945) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt#Presiden...

justin66 6y ago

> a lot of ideology based on "well party X took position Y because party V had position W back in year Z and they needed to be opposite and it stuck around". That's not ideology: that's literally not at all what "ideology" means. What you're describing is dogma, and the fact that the two are often conflated in public perception speaks to the OP's point.