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Thank you for trying. It saddens me how easy it still is for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air, water and land. The proof often falls upon th

by toshk 6y ago

Thank you for trying. It saddens me how easy it still is for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air, water and land. The proof often falls upon the "people" to prove chemicals used by companies are toxic instead of companies profiting from releasing them in to the environment providing extensive research that doing so is actually safe. Often years, if not decades before enough research is done before the harm is proven and legislation is made. It needs to be the other way around. In the meanwhile the individual suffering caused is immense. Of course Dupont is a famous relatively recent example. Related to this project the link between pesticides and neurological diseases, like Parkinson, is strong but still needs a lot research before actual changes will be made.

dejv 6y ago
I don't know how this thing goes outside of EU, but here as a farmer I have to go throgh state multiday exams every few years that makes me personally liable for all harm to other crops, population of bees and people who actually operate tractors. As a person in charge of spray program I have to make sure that weather condition is ok to spray (temperature, wind), my sprayers comply to standards and are tested in certified laboratory (things jet size, droplet size and uniformity) and I need to log every information and keep all that records for years to be checked by authorities anytime (and they do check them often). It is easy to see pesticides as a easy target, but I am affraid that it is actually not easy to dump toxic in the air, water and land as almost any gram of pesticide and packaging have to be accounted for and handled with care. (btw I am working in organic agriculture and do not use any pesticides except of sulfur and bit of a copper and I don't have any interest in conventional agriculture business)
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Yeah, same here in Ontario I can't even spray organic products without a pesticide applicators license which involves a training course. That's not to say the other local farmers don't do stupid things though. I get glyphosate drift into my vineyard almost every year.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Glyphosate is a lot safer than many organic products. Of course the later is a "chemical" with a "scary" name, while the later has great marketing and has been used for thousands of years.
    - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      You're not getting it and not telling me anything informative. It kills my grapevines. It's safe for humans and shitty to plants that aren't engineered to tolerate it. It's a dick-neighbour thing to do to spray it indiscriminately and in the wrong weather conditions but it happens _all the time_
      - bluGill 6y ago
        It is harmful to your grapevines when it reaches them, that is very true and I don't want to down play that. However it is less harmful than most organic options overall. It is completely harmless to humans or other wildlife. It doesn't build up over time.
        toshk 6y ago
        It's pretty widely accepted in the medical community that pesticides are correlated to Parkinson's. It seems to be connected to exposure over time, not necessarily build up in the body. You are right that a so-called natural pesticide like rotenone seems to be even worse. They were able to induce parkinson with it in rats in just a few weeks. But also Glyphosate is looked at with a lot of suspicion. Take this case study, they refer to several cases and epidemiologic research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30799335/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30799335/ Considering the medical attention and research it gets, I see no reason to be as sure as you are. Especially your believe that "it's completely harmless" seems to have no solid reasoning behind it.
  - Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
    Hi Porcupine, sounds like your region could do with one of our mesonets! That being said, in Australia, weather conditions are often too hot to spray during the day hence many farmers look to spray early morning, dusk or at night-time. These times tend to be prime inversion weather which leads to mass long-distance spray drift events from multiple sources (hence the need for our mesonet). I assume in Ontario, spraying can usually be done during the day even in summer, so farmers spraying during an inversion is less of an issue there? Or is that a false assumption? Do you suspect that the glyphosate drift into your vineyard is localised from your neighbour?
- toshk 6y ago
  Water in Netherlands next to pastures and farmlands often had high levels of toxicity, meaning it was treated as chemical waste. Because of strict regulations got better. Still happens to certain rivers. Had natural parc next to river where I get my meat call back meat because of too high levels of toxicity just last year. Certain factories here also still allowed to dump chemicals which in other countries are not allowed etc. Next to that, in certain areas here residential areas and fruit trees mix. So even with limited spraying and limited wind, you are sitting in the garden while tractor is spraying the trees a few meters from you.
tomhoward 6y ago
The issue here really isn't about it being "easy ... for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air". Sure, the safety of chemical pesticides is an issue, and something for manufacturers, users and regulators to continue working on. But the relevant issue here is that the most well-intentioned, responsible farmer, has not, until now, had the information available to determine whether spraying at a given point in time is safe, whereas, thanks to this platform, they now do. Well aside from any health effects of pesticides on humans, it will always be the case that certain chemicals that are suitable to be applied to one type of crop will be potentially harmful to a different type of crop. That's the issue that this platform seeks to address, and it seems to be working so far.
- toshk 6y ago
  My point being "working on" isn't really good enough when the health consequences for people are severe. Take dupont, took decades. Now same is happening for pesticides. Many we use now simply will be forbidden in decades. Yet for now they will continue to be used and cause harm. I happened to have grown up between we fruit trees and close people are paying the price. Residential areas and fruit trees mix here. Meaning the tractor with pesticides en herbicides are passing 5 to 10 meters from you while you are relaxing in the garden. Which hopefully in many countries is not the case.

by toshk 6y ago

dejv 6y ago

I don't know how this thing goes outside of EU, but here as a farmer I have to go throgh state multiday exams every few years that makes me personally liable for all harm to other crops, population of bees and people who actually operate tractors. As a person in charge of spray program I have to make sure that weather condition is ok to spray (temperature, wind), my sprayers comply to standards and are tested in certified laboratory (things jet size, droplet size and uniformity) and I need to log every information and keep all that records for years to be checked by authorities anytime (and they do check them often). It is easy to see pesticides as a easy target, but I am affraid that it is actually not easy to dump toxic in the air, water and land as almost any gram of pesticide and packaging have to be accounted for and handled with care. (btw I am working in organic agriculture and do not use any pesticides except of sulfur and bit of a copper and I don't have any interest in conventional agriculture business)

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Yeah, same here in Ontario I can't even spray organic products without a pesticide applicators license which involves a training course. That's not to say the other local farmers don't do stupid things though. I get glyphosate drift into my vineyard almost every year.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Glyphosate is a lot safer than many organic products. Of course the later is a "chemical" with a "scary" name, while the later has great marketing and has been used for thousands of years.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    You're not getting it and not telling me anything informative. It kills my grapevines. It's safe for humans and shitty to plants that aren't engineered to tolerate it. It's a dick-neighbour thing to do to spray it indiscriminately and in the wrong weather conditions but it happens _all the time_
    - bluGill 6y ago
      It is harmful to your grapevines when it reaches them, that is very true and I don't want to down play that. However it is less harmful than most organic options overall. It is completely harmless to humans or other wildlife. It doesn't build up over time.
      - toshk 6y ago
        It's pretty widely accepted in the medical community that pesticides are correlated to Parkinson's. It seems to be connected to exposure over time, not necessarily build up in the body. You are right that a so-called natural pesticide like rotenone seems to be even worse. They were able to induce parkinson with it in rats in just a few weeks. But also Glyphosate is looked at with a lot of suspicion. Take this case study, they refer to several cases and epidemiologic research: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30799335/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30799335/ Considering the medical attention and research it gets, I see no reason to be as sure as you are. Especially your believe that "it's completely harmless" seems to have no solid reasoning behind it.
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Hi Porcupine, sounds like your region could do with one of our mesonets! That being said, in Australia, weather conditions are often too hot to spray during the day hence many farmers look to spray early morning, dusk or at night-time. These times tend to be prime inversion weather which leads to mass long-distance spray drift events from multiple sources (hence the need for our mesonet). I assume in Ontario, spraying can usually be done during the day even in summer, so farmers spraying during an inversion is less of an issue there? Or is that a false assumption? Do you suspect that the glyphosate drift into your vineyard is localised from your neighbour?
toshk 6y ago
Water in Netherlands next to pastures and farmlands often had high levels of toxicity, meaning it was treated as chemical waste. Because of strict regulations got better. Still happens to certain rivers. Had natural parc next to river where I get my meat call back meat because of too high levels of toxicity just last year. Certain factories here also still allowed to dump chemicals which in other countries are not allowed etc. Next to that, in certain areas here residential areas and fruit trees mix. So even with limited spraying and limited wind, you are sitting in the garden while tractor is spraying the trees a few meters from you.

tomhoward 6y ago

The issue here really isn't about it being "easy ... for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air". Sure, the safety of chemical pesticides is an issue, and something for manufacturers, users and regulators to continue working on. But the relevant issue here is that the most well-intentioned, responsible farmer, has not, until now, had the information available to determine whether spraying at a given point in time is safe, whereas, thanks to this platform, they now do. Well aside from any health effects of pesticides on humans, it will always be the case that certain chemicals that are suitable to be applied to one type of crop will be potentially harmful to a different type of crop. That's the issue that this platform seeks to address, and it seems to be working so far.

toshk 6y ago
My point being "working on" isn't really good enough when the health consequences for people are severe. Take dupont, took decades. Now same is happening for pesticides. Many we use now simply will be forbidden in decades. Yet for now they will continue to be used and cause harm. I happened to have grown up between we fruit trees and close people are paying the price. Residential areas and fruit trees mix here. Meaning the tractor with pesticides en herbicides are passing 5 to 10 meters from you while you are relaxing in the garden. Which hopefully in many countries is not the case.