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It is pretty clear that nothing in the Constitution matters to these people. Even when laws are stretched to an absurd degree to accommodate them, they still ig

It is pretty clear that nothing in the Constitution matters to these people. Even when laws are stretched to an absurd degree to accommodate them, they still ignore and break these laws with impunity. You can't beat corrupt governments inside their own institutions. In our system, the legislative branch is not actually a tool of democratic participation, it is a tool of placation. It has no effective control over the security apparatus. It's Democracy Theater. It's a sad fact that we won't get our freedom unless we fight for it. No government gives up its power willingly. We see the terror and bloodshed of the Arab Spring and recoil, but that's what it takes to bring real change. Should Syrian protesters stay home because they may be shot or tortured? It depends on your perspective, but telling them to stay home because the government has machine guns and tanks is completely missing the point. Ignoring the law and going to the street is the only way they can win, even if it comes at a tremendous cost.

ChuckMcM 15y ago
You are not a student of history. "No government gives up its power willingly." We used to sanction treating people as property. We don't now. We used to sanction discrimination. We don't now. We used to draft people into the military. We don't now. It did come to violence once in our history, and I like to believe we learned from that, we've not had another civil war since. We voted a bunch of folks who were trouncing on the Constitution out of office. The process takes time, the time is built into the system to prevent wild oscillations. At least in the US, the government's "power" springs very directly from the people, its not up to the Government to 'give it up' or not. People who cannot convince the electorate that their cause is just will seek to take power by deception, do not be fooled.
- danenania 15y ago
  "We used to sanction treating people as property. We don't now. We used to sanction discrimination. We don't now." You aren't much of a 'student of history' if you think either of these was achieved by people following the rules. Countless people broke laws and were killed and jailed for those rights. "We used to draft people into the military. We don't now." The draft is still legal, so not sure what your point is here. Should we be celebrating that our benevolent leaders haven't deemed it necessary to use us as cannon fodder in the last few decades, though they reserve the right to? "At least in the US, the government's "power" springs very directly from the people, its not up to the Government to 'give it up' or not." If power 'sprang up from the people' in America, we would not have the patriot act or wars in several countries or foreign aid to despotic regimes or Wall Street bailouts or the war on drugs or TSA gate rape at airports or any number of extremely unpopular policies. America is an oligarchy, not a democracy. Power only springs up from the people to the extent that the people are willing to fight and die and go to jail for their rights, just like the subjects of any other corrupt regime.
- chc 15y ago
  All of those "We used to sanction…" bullet points are not the government giving up its power. If anything, the government is now asserting more power to block things that used to be permitted. Similarly, if a collector stops sanctioning late payments and takes a baseball bat to delinquent debtors, nobody would say, "Wow, just look at how much he's given up his power over these people." (I'm not saying the laws in question are bad, but they aren't examples of the government giving up power.) Abolishing the draft actually is an example of the government giving up power — or would be, if it had actually happened. Which it hasn't. All American men are required by law to sign up for Selective Service (i.e. the draft). The reason people aren't being actively drafted is because those in charge believe a draft at this time would be more trouble than it is worth, not because the government has relinquished the power.
- quanticle 15y ago
  We used to sanction treating people as property. We don't now. It took a hell of a lot of violence to make that happen. We used to sanction discrimination. We don't now. The water cannon, FBI raids, Klan intimidation, police dogs, and assassinations of civil rights leaders don't count as violence? We used to draft people into the military. We don't now. We stopped after thousands of disaffected youths much like the ones you're deriding right now stood up, burned their draft cards, and took a stand. We voted a bunch of folks who were trouncing on the Constitution out of office. The process takes time, the time is built into the system to prevent wild oscillations. We voted a bunch of folks who were trouncing the Constitution out of office and replaced them with people who've continued treating the founding document of the United States of America as toilet paper. Name one way that Obama's policies have differed from Bush in the field of civil liberties or due process. In every case, from the closing of Guantanamo to the continuation of warrantless wiretaps and national security letters, the incoming Obama administration dovetailed perfectly with the outgoing Bush administration. Obama has talked a good game, but has done absolutely nothing, even when opportunities to stand up for citizens' rights were presented to him on a silver platter. At least in the US, the government's "power" springs very directly from the people, its not up to the Government to 'give it up' or not. When the government can manipulate its power base as easily as our government is doing right now, the check of the people's will just another loophole to be exploited.
- danssig 15y ago
  >It did come to violence once in our history What on earth are you talking about? Every one of those cases was changed through violence. Stop treating people as property? The civil war. No more discrimination? You think that was all done by speeches? What was MLK Jr. talking about when he mentioned "the blast heard 'round the world"? Powerful people never give up power without violence or obvious threat of violence. You're seeing things how you wish they were.

ChuckMcM 15y ago

You are not a student of history. "No government gives up its power willingly." We used to sanction treating people as property. We don't now. We used to sanction discrimination. We don't now. We used to draft people into the military. We don't now. It did come to violence once in our history, and I like to believe we learned from that, we've not had another civil war since. We voted a bunch of folks who were trouncing on the Constitution out of office. The process takes time, the time is built into the system to prevent wild oscillations. At least in the US, the government's "power" springs very directly from the people, its not up to the Government to 'give it up' or not. People who cannot convince the electorate that their cause is just will seek to take power by deception, do not be fooled.

danenania 15y ago
"We used to sanction treating people as property. We don't now. We used to sanction discrimination. We don't now." You aren't much of a 'student of history' if you think either of these was achieved by people following the rules. Countless people broke laws and were killed and jailed for those rights. "We used to draft people into the military. We don't now." The draft is still legal, so not sure what your point is here. Should we be celebrating that our benevolent leaders haven't deemed it necessary to use us as cannon fodder in the last few decades, though they reserve the right to? "At least in the US, the government's "power" springs very directly from the people, its not up to the Government to 'give it up' or not." If power 'sprang up from the people' in America, we would not have the patriot act or wars in several countries or foreign aid to despotic regimes or Wall Street bailouts or the war on drugs or TSA gate rape at airports or any number of extremely unpopular policies. America is an oligarchy, not a democracy. Power only springs up from the people to the extent that the people are willing to fight and die and go to jail for their rights, just like the subjects of any other corrupt regime.
chc 15y ago
All of those "We used to sanction…" bullet points are not the government giving up its power. If anything, the government is now asserting more power to block things that used to be permitted. Similarly, if a collector stops sanctioning late payments and takes a baseball bat to delinquent debtors, nobody would say, "Wow, just look at how much he's given up his power over these people." (I'm not saying the laws in question are bad, but they aren't examples of the government giving up power.) Abolishing the draft actually is an example of the government giving up power — or would be, if it had actually happened. Which it hasn't. All American men are required by law to sign up for Selective Service (i.e. the draft). The reason people aren't being actively drafted is because those in charge believe a draft at this time would be more trouble than it is worth, not because the government has relinquished the power.
quanticle 15y ago
We used to sanction treating people as property. We don't now. It took a hell of a lot of violence to make that happen. We used to sanction discrimination. We don't now. The water cannon, FBI raids, Klan intimidation, police dogs, and assassinations of civil rights leaders don't count as violence? We used to draft people into the military. We don't now. We stopped after thousands of disaffected youths much like the ones you're deriding right now stood up, burned their draft cards, and took a stand. We voted a bunch of folks who were trouncing on the Constitution out of office. The process takes time, the time is built into the system to prevent wild oscillations. We voted a bunch of folks who were trouncing the Constitution out of office and replaced them with people who've continued treating the founding document of the United States of America as toilet paper. Name one way that Obama's policies have differed from Bush in the field of civil liberties or due process. In every case, from the closing of Guantanamo to the continuation of warrantless wiretaps and national security letters, the incoming Obama administration dovetailed perfectly with the outgoing Bush administration. Obama has talked a good game, but has done absolutely nothing, even when opportunities to stand up for citizens' rights were presented to him on a silver platter. At least in the US, the government's "power" springs very directly from the people, its not up to the Government to 'give it up' or not. When the government can manipulate its power base as easily as our government is doing right now, the check of the people's will just another loophole to be exploited.
danssig 15y ago
>It did come to violence once in our history What on earth are you talking about? Every one of those cases was changed through violence. Stop treating people as property? The civil war. No more discrimination? You think that was all done by speeches? What was MLK Jr. talking about when he mentioned "the blast heard 'round the world"? Powerful people never give up power without violence or obvious threat of violence. You're seeing things how you wish they were.