8 ms·

Show HN: A network of weather stations to help prevent pesticide spray drift

83 points by Damon_Mesonet 6y ago

Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
Hi HN! I’m Damon, project engineer for the Mid North Mesonet and the Riverland and Mallee Mesonet in the state of South Australia. A mesonet is a term for a network of automated weather stations designed to monitor meteorological phenomena at high geographic density and updated frequently. We built these networks to help prevent pesticide spray drift - the phenomenon in which pesticide spray that is applied to a crop ends up drifting to other crops, sometimes many kilometres away. Spray drift can be a huge problem, as it can lead to damage or even destruction of highly valuable crops, and can also cause pollution to waterways and harm to native ecosystems. My father is a veteran meteorologist, and he has done extensive research into the weather conditions that cause spray drift. The biggest weather factor is thermal inversions, the phenomenon in which temperature increases with increasing altitude, which usually happens in the evening and overnight, but can happen at other times. Other meteorological phenomena also affect the likelihood of spray drift. So we designed a weather station to measure all the relevant meteorological phenomena, and in particular to detect thermal inversions. To read more info about the project’s background, the meteorology and the technical details of the weather stations, see this link: https://cotl.com.au/launch.html https://cotl.com.au/launch.html And the links to the actual mesonet web apps are: Mid North Mesonet: https://midnorthmesonet.com.au/ https://midnorthmesonet.com.au/ Riverland and Mallee Mesonet: https://riverlandmalleemesonet.com.au/ https://riverlandmalleemesonet.com.au/ I’ll be here to answer questions about the weather stations, and my father Warwick will also be around to answer questions about the meteorological aspects of the project.
- shakna 6y ago
  I see the pilot was deemed to be successful, though it might be too early to tell, so I assume you've put significant work it what I think is the biggest problem to solve in this space: The human problem. How do you manage to onboard many farmers, many of whom in Australia tend to be... Resistant... to new technology, into making use of your network to prevent damage to their neighbours downwind from them?
  - Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
    Hi Shakna Both the pilot mesonet in the Mid North and the subsequent network in the Riverland Mallee were actually strongly supported by local growers. Many farmers are embracing the latest AgTech to farm more efficiently. A majority of pesticide sprays such as 2,4-D and glyphosate have label requirements that state they cannot be sprayed during an inversion. It is illegal to spray during an inversion and farmers must keep records of their spray times. Without the mesonet, spray applicators had no easy way to know if an inversion was present or not. Given inversions typically happen at night time, many growers adopted a method of not spraying from dusk until dawn. Now, with the mesonet data, they find that their ‘spray window’ is possibly different and may even open up more time for them to spray. Most farmers want to do the right thing, and now they have the real-time data to make informed decisions. Also, the public nature of the data display means that anyone spraying during an inversion will be noticed by their neighbours. This will hopefully lead to cultural change and practice change as the public data will make it highly awkward for ’cowboy’ growers in the community to flout the rules and claim ignorance. We also have all the historical records should the regulators ask for it if a spray drift event occurs.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Thank you so much for doing this. It is a really helpful thing you're doing for the world. What crops would you say are most used in conjunction with the bad types of pesticides in South Australia?
  - Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
    Hi Forgotmypw The crops in the regions covered by the mesonet include broadacre agricultural crops (typically wheat and other cereals, and canola, and pulses such as chick peas), vineyards, fruiting trees in the Riverland (i.e. almonds, oranges, stone fruits etc) and potatoes. Particularly the mix of crop types within a region can result in problematic spray drift. For example, summer spraying in broadacre farms to kill summer weeds can drift many kilometres into vineyards and greatly affect the broad-leafed grapevines just as they are starting to fruit. The typical herbicides used are glyphosate and 2,4-D. I don’t think these are ‘bad’ per se as they are a necessary part of modern agriculture. I think the ‘bad’ part is more to do with improper usage. This is everything from droplet size, volatisation, nozzle size, boom height as well as multiple weather factors. There have been numerous education and awareness campaigns about these things which have led to improved management. The missing piece of the puzzle was that although everyone knew inversions were bad for spraying (a big culprit for long-distance spray drift), no one knew when an inversion was happening. Our mesonet and website have now addressed this 
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      Thank you for such a detailed response!
throwaway8326 6y ago
hows about stop spraying
- jeremy3242 6y ago
  Because organic farming is way more resource intensive and produces far less yield. Spray is necessary but just needs to be used appropriately. Appropriate spraying and shifting away from such meat based diets would be best.
jeremy3242 6y ago
In your website I see “atmospheric stability” as a measurement. How is this measured as “stable” or “unstable”?
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Hi Jeremy For our current Mesonets, we simply measure the presence of an inversion (i.e. the temperature differential between 10m and 1.2m). However, we can also measure other forms of atmospheric stability such as the categorises in the Pasquill Gifford stability classes, as well as various wind fluctuations and Richardson number etc. We are keeping abreast of the most up-to-date science around measures of atmospheric stability and spraying so we are ‘future-proofed’ for new discoveries that may pop up in Met Journals in the next year or two.
toshk 6y ago
Thank you for trying. It saddens me how easy it still is for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air, water and land. The proof often falls upon the "people" to prove chemicals used by companies are toxic instead of companies profiting from releasing them in to the environment providing extensive research that doing so is actually safe. Often years, if not decades before enough research is done before the harm is proven and legislation is made. It needs to be the other way around. In the meanwhile the individual suffering caused is immense. Of course Dupont is a famous relatively recent example. Related to this project the link between pesticides and neurological diseases, like Parkinson, is strong but still needs a lot research before actual changes will be made.
- dejv 6y ago
  I don't know how this thing goes outside of EU, but here as a farmer I have to go throgh state multiday exams every few years that makes me personally liable for all harm to other crops, population of bees and people who actually operate tractors. As a person in charge of spray program I have to make sure that weather condition is ok to spray (temperature, wind), my sprayers comply to standards and are tested in certified laboratory (things jet size, droplet size and uniformity) and I need to log every information and keep all that records for years to be checked by authorities anytime (and they do check them often). It is easy to see pesticides as a easy target, but I am affraid that it is actually not easy to dump toxic in the air, water and land as almost any gram of pesticide and packaging have to be accounted for and handled with care. (btw I am working in organic agriculture and do not use any pesticides except of sulfur and bit of a copper and I don't have any interest in conventional agriculture business)
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Yeah, same here in Ontario I can't even spray organic products without a pesticide applicators license which involves a training course. That's not to say the other local farmers don't do stupid things though. I get glyphosate drift into my vineyard almost every year.
    - 6y ago
nelsonmandela 6y ago
What are the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia? Are farmers liable for damage now or in the past from improper application of pesticides?
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Hi Nelson I’m not an agriculturalist so I’d have to ask a colleague about the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia. The most common herbicides used in the regions we work in are glyphosate (i.e. ‘Round-Up’) and 2,4-D. These are also the most likely culprits of damaged crops from spray drift events. Spray applicators can be fined now (and in the past) if they are found to have breached spraying rules. Spraying rules involves suitable weather conditions, as well as things like droplet size, boom height, nozzle size etc. Spray applicators need to keep a log/record of all their spraying activities and the current weather etc. They can likely be sued by the affected farmer, but I’m not sure about how often they end up having to pay damages. Long-distance spray drift (common during an inversion) can be impossible to identify the source(s)/culprit(s). Until now, farmers may have unwittingly sprayed during an inversion or some rogue farmers may have taken advantage of the fact that no-one could prove that it was inversion. Because of our mesonet and real-time data, this is no longer the case. Spray applicators legally MUST adhere to the label directions (do NOT spray during an inversion). And the public nature of our website and data mean that anyone out spraying when the mesonet indicates hazardous conditions will face community backlash – this is also a strong driver for behaviour change / practice change.
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jaygray0919 6y ago
Damon, is your source data exportable? Here's a use case: for a moment-in-time (your data), calibrate another device(my data) based on your sample? Can I set up a pipeline to implement that workflow?
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Hi JayGray Altho we received Government funding to establish the mesonet, we receive no ongoing funding to maintain the weather stations or the web app. Hence we are looking into revenue streams to ensure the longevity of the mesonet; advertising space and data on-selling/paid subscriptions. We display 10-minutely data for the past 48 hours on the web app. We keep all historical data and it can be purchased from us for a fee. We are moving towards a paid premium subscription model to streamline this (whilst also working on further value-adds such as ET0, and accumulated crop vernal/thermal times). We are also investigating the potential to commercialise access via API.
prawn 6y ago
Anyone else in SA might be familiar with the Mintaro Maze (https://mintaromaze.com.au/ https://mintaromaze.com.au/) which looks to be in the zone of the Mid North network. They have had a significant part of the maze's conifers lost to pesticide spray drift - a hedge that took many years to grow and shape.
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Yes, the Mintaro Maze is indeed within our region and there is a weather station in Mintaro as well. I didn't know about the spray damage to the hedge maze - that's so sad!

83 points by Damon_Mesonet 6y ago

Hi HN! I’m Damon, project engineer for the Mid North Mesonet and the Riverland and Mallee Mesonet in the state of South Australia. A mesonet is a term for a network of automated weather stations designed to monitor meteorological phenomena at high geographic density and updated frequently. We built these networks to help prevent pesticide spray drift - the phenomenon in which pesticide spray that is applied to a crop ends up drifting to other crops, sometimes many kilometres away. Spray drift can be a huge problem, as it can lead to damage or even destruction of highly valuable crops, and can also cause pollution to waterways and harm to native ecosystems. My father is a veteran meteorologist, and he has done extensive research into the weather conditions that cause spray drift. The biggest weather factor is thermal inversions, the phenomenon in which temperature increases with increasing altitude, which usually happens in the evening and overnight, but can happen at other times. Other meteorological phenomena also affect the likelihood of spray drift. So we designed a weather station to measure all the relevant meteorological phenomena, and in particular to detect thermal inversions. To read more info about the project’s background, the meteorology and the technical details of the weather stations, see this link: https://cotl.com.au/launch.html https://cotl.com.au/launch.html And the links to the actual mesonet web apps are: Mid North Mesonet: https://midnorthmesonet.com.au/ https://midnorthmesonet.com.au/ Riverland and Mallee Mesonet: https://riverlandmalleemesonet.com.au/ https://riverlandmalleemesonet.com.au/ I’ll be here to answer questions about the weather stations, and my father Warwick will also be around to answer questions about the meteorological aspects of the project.

shakna 6y ago
I see the pilot was deemed to be successful, though it might be too early to tell, so I assume you've put significant work it what I think is the biggest problem to solve in this space: The human problem. How do you manage to onboard many farmers, many of whom in Australia tend to be... Resistant... to new technology, into making use of your network to prevent damage to their neighbours downwind from them?
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Hi Shakna Both the pilot mesonet in the Mid North and the subsequent network in the Riverland Mallee were actually strongly supported by local growers. Many farmers are embracing the latest AgTech to farm more efficiently. A majority of pesticide sprays such as 2,4-D and glyphosate have label requirements that state they cannot be sprayed during an inversion. It is illegal to spray during an inversion and farmers must keep records of their spray times. Without the mesonet, spray applicators had no easy way to know if an inversion was present or not. Given inversions typically happen at night time, many growers adopted a method of not spraying from dusk until dawn. Now, with the mesonet data, they find that their ‘spray window’ is possibly different and may even open up more time for them to spray. Most farmers want to do the right thing, and now they have the real-time data to make informed decisions. Also, the public nature of the data display means that anyone spraying during an inversion will be noticed by their neighbours. This will hopefully lead to cultural change and practice change as the public data will make it highly awkward for ’cowboy’ growers in the community to flout the rules and claim ignorance. We also have all the historical records should the regulators ask for it if a spray drift event occurs.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
Thank you so much for doing this. It is a really helpful thing you're doing for the world. What crops would you say are most used in conjunction with the bad types of pesticides in South Australia?
- Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
  Hi Forgotmypw The crops in the regions covered by the mesonet include broadacre agricultural crops (typically wheat and other cereals, and canola, and pulses such as chick peas), vineyards, fruiting trees in the Riverland (i.e. almonds, oranges, stone fruits etc) and potatoes. Particularly the mix of crop types within a region can result in problematic spray drift. For example, summer spraying in broadacre farms to kill summer weeds can drift many kilometres into vineyards and greatly affect the broad-leafed grapevines just as they are starting to fruit. The typical herbicides used are glyphosate and 2,4-D. I don’t think these are ‘bad’ per se as they are a necessary part of modern agriculture. I think the ‘bad’ part is more to do with improper usage. This is everything from droplet size, volatisation, nozzle size, boom height as well as multiple weather factors. There have been numerous education and awareness campaigns about these things which have led to improved management. The missing piece of the puzzle was that although everyone knew inversions were bad for spraying (a big culprit for long-distance spray drift), no one knew when an inversion was happening. Our mesonet and website have now addressed this 
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Thank you for such a detailed response!

throwaway8326 6y ago

hows about stop spraying

jeremy3242 6y ago
Because organic farming is way more resource intensive and produces far less yield. Spray is necessary but just needs to be used appropriately. Appropriate spraying and shifting away from such meat based diets would be best.

jeremy3242 6y ago

In your website I see “atmospheric stability” as a measurement. How is this measured as “stable” or “unstable”?

Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
Hi Jeremy For our current Mesonets, we simply measure the presence of an inversion (i.e. the temperature differential between 10m and 1.2m). However, we can also measure other forms of atmospheric stability such as the categorises in the Pasquill Gifford stability classes, as well as various wind fluctuations and Richardson number etc. We are keeping abreast of the most up-to-date science around measures of atmospheric stability and spraying so we are ‘future-proofed’ for new discoveries that may pop up in Met Journals in the next year or two.

toshk 6y ago

Thank you for trying. It saddens me how easy it still is for companies how easy it is to dump toxics in the air, water and land. The proof often falls upon the "people" to prove chemicals used by companies are toxic instead of companies profiting from releasing them in to the environment providing extensive research that doing so is actually safe. Often years, if not decades before enough research is done before the harm is proven and legislation is made. It needs to be the other way around. In the meanwhile the individual suffering caused is immense. Of course Dupont is a famous relatively recent example. Related to this project the link between pesticides and neurological diseases, like Parkinson, is strong but still needs a lot research before actual changes will be made.

dejv 6y ago
I don't know how this thing goes outside of EU, but here as a farmer I have to go throgh state multiday exams every few years that makes me personally liable for all harm to other crops, population of bees and people who actually operate tractors. As a person in charge of spray program I have to make sure that weather condition is ok to spray (temperature, wind), my sprayers comply to standards and are tested in certified laboratory (things jet size, droplet size and uniformity) and I need to log every information and keep all that records for years to be checked by authorities anytime (and they do check them often). It is easy to see pesticides as a easy target, but I am affraid that it is actually not easy to dump toxic in the air, water and land as almost any gram of pesticide and packaging have to be accounted for and handled with care. (btw I am working in organic agriculture and do not use any pesticides except of sulfur and bit of a copper and I don't have any interest in conventional agriculture business)
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Yeah, same here in Ontario I can't even spray organic products without a pesticide applicators license which involves a training course. That's not to say the other local farmers don't do stupid things though. I get glyphosate drift into my vineyard almost every year.
  - 6y ago

nelsonmandela 6y ago

What are the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia? Are farmers liable for damage now or in the past from improper application of pesticides?

Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
Hi Nelson I’m not an agriculturalist so I’d have to ask a colleague about the most dangerous pesticides in use in Australia. The most common herbicides used in the regions we work in are glyphosate (i.e. ‘Round-Up’) and 2,4-D. These are also the most likely culprits of damaged crops from spray drift events. Spray applicators can be fined now (and in the past) if they are found to have breached spraying rules. Spraying rules involves suitable weather conditions, as well as things like droplet size, boom height, nozzle size etc. Spray applicators need to keep a log/record of all their spraying activities and the current weather etc. They can likely be sued by the affected farmer, but I’m not sure about how often they end up having to pay damages. Long-distance spray drift (common during an inversion) can be impossible to identify the source(s)/culprit(s). Until now, farmers may have unwittingly sprayed during an inversion or some rogue farmers may have taken advantage of the fact that no-one could prove that it was inversion. Because of our mesonet and real-time data, this is no longer the case. Spray applicators legally MUST adhere to the label directions (do NOT spray during an inversion). And the public nature of our website and data mean that anyone out spraying when the mesonet indicates hazardous conditions will face community backlash – this is also a strong driver for behaviour change / practice change.

Jennifer9918910 6y ago

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jaygray0919 6y ago

Damon, is your source data exportable? Here's a use case: for a moment-in-time (your data), calibrate another device(my data) based on your sample? Can I set up a pipeline to implement that workflow?

Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
Hi JayGray Altho we received Government funding to establish the mesonet, we receive no ongoing funding to maintain the weather stations or the web app. Hence we are looking into revenue streams to ensure the longevity of the mesonet; advertising space and data on-selling/paid subscriptions. We display 10-minutely data for the past 48 hours on the web app. We keep all historical data and it can be purchased from us for a fee. We are moving towards a paid premium subscription model to streamline this (whilst also working on further value-adds such as ET0, and accumulated crop vernal/thermal times). We are also investigating the potential to commercialise access via API.

prawn 6y ago

Anyone else in SA might be familiar with the Mintaro Maze (https://mintaromaze.com.au/ https://mintaromaze.com.au/) which looks to be in the zone of the Mid North network. They have had a significant part of the maze's conifers lost to pesticide spray drift - a hedge that took many years to grow and shape.

Damon_Mesonet 6y ago
Yes, the Mintaro Maze is indeed within our region and there is a weather station in Mintaro as well. I didn't know about the spray damage to the hedge maze - that's so sad!