5 ms·

trans women are women. period.

jl6 6y ago
Some people disagree with that attempt to redefine words. This whole thread is about the right to have that disagreement in a civil fashion, or whether to shut down the thought process with phrases like “period”.
- colesantiago 6y ago
  > This whole thread is about the right to have that disagreement in a civil fashion. Well fuck their disagreement, there is no civility when you're excluding people. Also, this t*rf shit is not up for discussion and there should be no debate on trans women's existence as women.
  - jl6 6y ago
    “Period”, “fuck [them]”, “not up for discussion”, “no debate”... these are not terms used by successful thinkers. Rather, they are how echo chambers form.
    - colesantiago 6y ago
      I wince at this statement. There is no need to be a "successful thinker" on something that should be common sense. It's OK that you don't want to admit your transphobia and instead continue to drop a viewpoint which trans women and people have been fighting against, but at least be honest.
      - jl6 6y ago
        Where do you think reasonable viewpoints come from if not from critical thinking? Common sense does not spring full formed from the ether - and by the way, “common sense” has been the rallying cry of reactionary anti-thinking since time immemorial. It is “common sense” that socialism is evil and God is real if you ask your political enemies - of which I am not one, I assure you, despite your seeming to want to pick a fight with me.
        colesantiago 6y ago
        > Where do you think reasonable viewpoints come from if not from critical thinking? Yeah, I don't think excluding people by saying trans women are not women is a reasonable viewpoint and it is also exhausting for trans people to push back against these t*rfs. I would even go far to say the fact of begin to 'critical think' in this space of someone's existence is extremely harmful.
- knz_ 6y ago
  > Some people disagree with that attempt to redefine words. A trans person's identity isn't up for debate. You are insinuating that trans people are not human, which is abhorrent. > This whole thread is about the right to have that disagreement in a civil fashion We already fought a war over this idea. Your side lost. Get over it.
  - soundnote 6y ago
    > A trans person's identity isn't up for debate. You are insinuating that trans people are not human, which is abhorrent. How? There is a biological reality which we can't erase even with the medical miracles we can nowadays do to ease gender dysphoria, and there is self-identification. Neither even remotely relates to whether transpeople are human. At most they relate to mental health.
  - hackinthebochs 6y ago
    >You are insinuating that trans people are not human, which is abhorrent. This is boneheaded and obnoxious. The question of whether a transperson's personal identity reflects reality has nothing to do with whether a transperson is human.
    - knz_ 6y ago
      > This is boneheaded and obnoxious. No it isn't. You are overtly arguing that trans people should be killed.
      - hackinthebochs 6y ago
        This is the only issue where this sort of silly hyperbole is common and tolerated.
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DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
What does that have to do with anything? The link above is a collection of screenshots of incitement of violence happening on twitter. a) Against whom or for what reason that incitement is happening if irrelevant. b) Equating defending a persons right not to receive death threats to supporting their ideology is beyond dangerous.
- colesantiago 6y ago
  > What does that have to do with anything? It's a reminder, more to the point, is it a slur though? If you are fine with denying someone's existence I am sure you can take whatever is coming to you from very people fighting against you. > ...incitement of violence I would disagree with the 'incitement of violence', but to be fair, I don't blame them either, I would have said the same as well.
  - DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
    > If you are fine with denying someone's existence I am sure you can take whatever is coming to you from very people fighting against you. Calling for people to be killed is never OK. Defending people who call for others to be killed is not OK.
    - colesantiago 6y ago
      Who said this was 'OK'? Maybe don't deny the existence of people and perhaps you won't get those responses?
      - DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
        > Who said this was 'OK'? You're constantly implying that they deserve it with sentences like "Maybe don't deny the existence of people and perhaps you won't get those responses?". I'm telling you that's being a huge dick because nobody deserves to be told that they should be killed, even if they are massive assholes themselves. And now you're trying to weasel-word your way out of it without admitting that those tweets are wrong, which sure doesn't make it seem like you disagree with them.
_-david-_ 6y ago
This is highly debatable. In 100 years if an anthropologist was looking at the skeleton of a trans person they would beg to differ. If a doctor was looking at the DNA they would beg to differ.

jl6 6y ago

Some people disagree with that attempt to redefine words. This whole thread is about the right to have that disagreement in a civil fashion, or whether to shut down the thought process with phrases like “period”.

colesantiago 6y ago
> This whole thread is about the right to have that disagreement in a civil fashion. Well fuck their disagreement, there is no civility when you're excluding people. Also, this t*rf shit is not up for discussion and there should be no debate on trans women's existence as women.
- jl6 6y ago
  “Period”, “fuck [them]”, “not up for discussion”, “no debate”... these are not terms used by successful thinkers. Rather, they are how echo chambers form.
  - colesantiago 6y ago
    I wince at this statement. There is no need to be a "successful thinker" on something that should be common sense. It's OK that you don't want to admit your transphobia and instead continue to drop a viewpoint which trans women and people have been fighting against, but at least be honest.
    - jl6 6y ago
      Where do you think reasonable viewpoints come from if not from critical thinking? Common sense does not spring full formed from the ether - and by the way, “common sense” has been the rallying cry of reactionary anti-thinking since time immemorial. It is “common sense” that socialism is evil and God is real if you ask your political enemies - of which I am not one, I assure you, despite your seeming to want to pick a fight with me.
      - colesantiago 6y ago
        > Where do you think reasonable viewpoints come from if not from critical thinking? Yeah, I don't think excluding people by saying trans women are not women is a reasonable viewpoint and it is also exhausting for trans people to push back against these t*rfs. I would even go far to say the fact of begin to 'critical think' in this space of someone's existence is extremely harmful.
knz_ 6y ago
> Some people disagree with that attempt to redefine words. A trans person's identity isn't up for debate. You are insinuating that trans people are not human, which is abhorrent. > This whole thread is about the right to have that disagreement in a civil fashion We already fought a war over this idea. Your side lost. Get over it.
- soundnote 6y ago
  > A trans person's identity isn't up for debate. You are insinuating that trans people are not human, which is abhorrent. How? There is a biological reality which we can't erase even with the medical miracles we can nowadays do to ease gender dysphoria, and there is self-identification. Neither even remotely relates to whether transpeople are human. At most they relate to mental health.
- hackinthebochs 6y ago
  >You are insinuating that trans people are not human, which is abhorrent. This is boneheaded and obnoxious. The question of whether a transperson's personal identity reflects reality has nothing to do with whether a transperson is human.
  - knz_ 6y ago
    > This is boneheaded and obnoxious. No it isn't. You are overtly arguing that trans people should be killed.
    - hackinthebochs 6y ago
      This is the only issue where this sort of silly hyperbole is common and tolerated.

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DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago

What does that have to do with anything? The link above is a collection of screenshots of incitement of violence happening on twitter. a) Against whom or for what reason that incitement is happening if irrelevant. b) Equating defending a persons right not to receive death threats to supporting their ideology is beyond dangerous.

colesantiago 6y ago
> What does that have to do with anything? It's a reminder, more to the point, is it a slur though? If you are fine with denying someone's existence I am sure you can take whatever is coming to you from very people fighting against you. > ...incitement of violence I would disagree with the 'incitement of violence', but to be fair, I don't blame them either, I would have said the same as well.
- DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
  > If you are fine with denying someone's existence I am sure you can take whatever is coming to you from very people fighting against you. Calling for people to be killed is never OK. Defending people who call for others to be killed is not OK.
  - colesantiago 6y ago
    Who said this was 'OK'? Maybe don't deny the existence of people and perhaps you won't get those responses?
    - DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
      > Who said this was 'OK'? You're constantly implying that they deserve it with sentences like "Maybe don't deny the existence of people and perhaps you won't get those responses?". I'm telling you that's being a huge dick because nobody deserves to be told that they should be killed, even if they are massive assholes themselves. And now you're trying to weasel-word your way out of it without admitting that those tweets are wrong, which sure doesn't make it seem like you disagree with them.

_-david-_ 6y ago

This is highly debatable. In 100 years if an anthropologist was looking at the skeleton of a trans person they would beg to differ. If a doctor was looking at the DNA they would beg to differ.