5 ms·

Stalin and Mao were communists.

dagmx 6y ago
This only works if you put cold war blinders on and equate the word communism to being left wing. Their policy and actions were decidedly not left wing.
- feralimal 6y ago
  dagmx - for you, 'socialist' and 'communist' are not left wing positions! Lol!! The reality is that the 'left' were by far the greatest killers of people (their own people) in the previous century. There is no 'live and let live' attitude allowed. They are right, and anyone who doesn't agree must die is pretty much the position. Agreement is the only position that can be tolerated. This is where the US is heading too. Trump was vilified and banned while still a president but ongoing BLM protests were fine. To an outsider, it is also clear that the media and tech companies are incredibly biased to the left - they do not honour free speech - they call it 'hate speech' (who wants that) and de-platform - even the president! I'm neither left nor right btw - all statism is tyranny to me - either position (and both have their merits and demerits) necessitate tyranny over the majority by the minority who got their guy in. How that can ever be just beats me! But the left have a hypocrisy to their moaning - they somehow believe they have the moral high ground!
  - dagmx 6y ago
    It's a bit rich to claim you're neither right nor left, when you're constantly repeating right wing talking points. Maybe you don't prescribe to a label, but all your arguments thus far all hinge on labels and not policy.
    - feralimal 6y ago
      Ok - here's my criticism of the 'right'. They talk about less government, but never do anything about it! Never. They will say whatever it is that sounds good to conservatives, but do the opposite. Left and right are all on board with the same system. And this is increasing a fascist system, run by corporations. But whatever the case - if people purport to have a constitution that allows for free speech - but that a lot of people do not have meaningful ability to exercise it, well its not surprising that places like Gab spring up. And that all those de-platformed views make their way there. People need to be able to have their say. It used to be that it was a left position to say 'I don't like what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it'. Those days are long gone - de-platform the hate speaker!
      - dagmx 6y ago
        You have a flawed understanding of free speech. It only protects against retribution by the government. It doesn't extend to society accepting any and all speech was acceptable.
    - fenderbluesjr 6y ago
      He didn't state any of his own political views so you can't place him. You should consider whether those talking points actually have some legitimacy rather than using them to identify which group he's in. This is actually part of the problem he refers to.
      - dagmx 6y ago
        So you're l saying he raised specific points but that they aren't reflective of his political beliefs but are somehow reflective of mine because I don't agree with them? That's certainly a level of mental gymnastics to paint things favorably for your political beliefs.
- xupybd 6y ago
  The problem is left and right are not a single dimension. Liberal left wing policies can often overlap with libertarian right wing policies. This is because the align on the freedom dimension. There are other examples but I don't think you can argue that Mao and Stalin are not left wing. They both push the idea that the state can and should supply the needs of the people. This is a very left wing view on both the financial and social dimension.
  - dagmx 6y ago
    I agree that there's overlap in certain areas. However it also depends are you simply looking at the economic beliefs of left/right wing idealogies or also social rights? It also depends on which era of left vs right is being considered, since the traits of the spectrum have changed over the decades. Perhaps the issue is many consider only the economic models as the indicator, whereas many others consider the entirety of policy with regards to equality and rights. If we're only looking at economic policy, then sure, Mao and Stalin are left wing. If you look at it socially, then I'd argue they were not because they violently impugned on the freedoms of people to install totalitarianism. Maybe one could argue they're far left, or alt left in todays vernacular however. But even that would be eschewing much of the social aspects of leftism. Mostly because their aspects of "equality" only applied to the people they deemed equal. Which was unequal to start with.
    - xupybd 6y ago
      Well that is what I was trying to illustrate. There is an authoritarian right ( e.g. Hitler ) and an authoritarian left ( e.g Stalin ). It sucks if you're on the left or right and are more on the pro freedom end when someone drags up the authoritarian cohort of your respective side. I'm right of centre ( pro private industry ) but anti fascism. I'm pro private industry because I don't like a concentration of power. So a mix of small government with the power to provide basic services and break up monopolies seems the best way to keep everything free. So slightly left wing social policies such as free medical care aren't my first choice but much better than giving the government more surveillance powers. So I think I'm further away from fascism than I am from socialism. Yet as I'm right of centre people throw Hitler is on your side at me.
goatinaboat 6y ago
Stalin and Mao were communists. Marx used the terms socialist and communist interchangeably in his writings. So that is a distinction without a difference.

This only works if you put cold war blinders on and equate the word communism to being left wing. Their policy and actions were decidedly not left wing.

feralimal 6y ago
dagmx - for you, 'socialist' and 'communist' are not left wing positions! Lol!! The reality is that the 'left' were by far the greatest killers of people (their own people) in the previous century. There is no 'live and let live' attitude allowed. They are right, and anyone who doesn't agree must die is pretty much the position. Agreement is the only position that can be tolerated. This is where the US is heading too. Trump was vilified and banned while still a president but ongoing BLM protests were fine. To an outsider, it is also clear that the media and tech companies are incredibly biased to the left - they do not honour free speech - they call it 'hate speech' (who wants that) and de-platform - even the president! I'm neither left nor right btw - all statism is tyranny to me - either position (and both have their merits and demerits) necessitate tyranny over the majority by the minority who got their guy in. How that can ever be just beats me! But the left have a hypocrisy to their moaning - they somehow believe they have the moral high ground!
- dagmx 6y ago
  It's a bit rich to claim you're neither right nor left, when you're constantly repeating right wing talking points. Maybe you don't prescribe to a label, but all your arguments thus far all hinge on labels and not policy.
  - feralimal 6y ago
    Ok - here's my criticism of the 'right'. They talk about less government, but never do anything about it! Never. They will say whatever it is that sounds good to conservatives, but do the opposite. Left and right are all on board with the same system. And this is increasing a fascist system, run by corporations. But whatever the case - if people purport to have a constitution that allows for free speech - but that a lot of people do not have meaningful ability to exercise it, well its not surprising that places like Gab spring up. And that all those de-platformed views make their way there. People need to be able to have their say. It used to be that it was a left position to say 'I don't like what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it'. Those days are long gone - de-platform the hate speaker!
    - dagmx 6y ago
      You have a flawed understanding of free speech. It only protects against retribution by the government. It doesn't extend to society accepting any and all speech was acceptable.
  - fenderbluesjr 6y ago
    He didn't state any of his own political views so you can't place him. You should consider whether those talking points actually have some legitimacy rather than using them to identify which group he's in. This is actually part of the problem he refers to.
    - dagmx 6y ago
      So you're l saying he raised specific points but that they aren't reflective of his political beliefs but are somehow reflective of mine because I don't agree with them? That's certainly a level of mental gymnastics to paint things favorably for your political beliefs.
xupybd 6y ago
The problem is left and right are not a single dimension. Liberal left wing policies can often overlap with libertarian right wing policies. This is because the align on the freedom dimension. There are other examples but I don't think you can argue that Mao and Stalin are not left wing. They both push the idea that the state can and should supply the needs of the people. This is a very left wing view on both the financial and social dimension.
- dagmx 6y ago
  I agree that there's overlap in certain areas. However it also depends are you simply looking at the economic beliefs of left/right wing idealogies or also social rights? It also depends on which era of left vs right is being considered, since the traits of the spectrum have changed over the decades. Perhaps the issue is many consider only the economic models as the indicator, whereas many others consider the entirety of policy with regards to equality and rights. If we're only looking at economic policy, then sure, Mao and Stalin are left wing. If you look at it socially, then I'd argue they were not because they violently impugned on the freedoms of people to install totalitarianism. Maybe one could argue they're far left, or alt left in todays vernacular however. But even that would be eschewing much of the social aspects of leftism. Mostly because their aspects of "equality" only applied to the people they deemed equal. Which was unequal to start with.
  - xupybd 6y ago
    Well that is what I was trying to illustrate. There is an authoritarian right ( e.g. Hitler ) and an authoritarian left ( e.g Stalin ). It sucks if you're on the left or right and are more on the pro freedom end when someone drags up the authoritarian cohort of your respective side. I'm right of centre ( pro private industry ) but anti fascism. I'm pro private industry because I don't like a concentration of power. So a mix of small government with the power to provide basic services and break up monopolies seems the best way to keep everything free. So slightly left wing social policies such as free medical care aren't my first choice but much better than giving the government more surveillance powers. So I think I'm further away from fascism than I am from socialism. Yet as I'm right of centre people throw Hitler is on your side at me.

goatinaboat 6y ago

Stalin and Mao were communists. Marx used the terms socialist and communist interchangeably in his writings. So that is a distinction without a difference.