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Doesn't this same logic apply to the donors though? They aren't professional university funders though. If the university doesn't sing the songs they want, ad

Doesn't this same logic apply to the donors though? They aren't professional university funders though. If the university doesn't sing the songs they want, admittedly, a silly reason to me, why should they keep donating? It seems to me that people donate to universities in part because they want to perpetuate the culture and ideas that they found significant when they were at university or that they want to see more of. The donors disagree with the ideological stance taken by the university, and so, stop donating. I don't see what the problem is. People shouldn't be forced to sing what they don't want to sing or pay for sports or institutions they don't want to support.

dragontamer 6y ago
> Doesn't this same logic apply to the donors though? Indeed! I find the entire "cancel culture" argument to be... well. a non-sequitur. Just a few years ago, when politics were all about whether or not a religious person should be forced to bake a cake for a Gay couple (Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado), we discussed the actual issue at play. Religious freedom vs Tolerance. Not everyone was pleased with the result, but we discussed the actual freaking issue at hand. Today, people just yell "Cancel Culture" and leave the argument. IMO, I find this entire methodology of discussing things non-helpful. --------- What we have here is: Alumni vs Students. One is in the right, one is in the wrong. Or maybe both are right, and both are wrong. Or all the above. Why don't we discuss the core issue at hand, instead of trying to derail the discussion using "Cancel Culture" battlecries?
- atypicaluser 6y ago
  > Why don't we discuss the core issue at hand, instead of trying to derail the discussion using "Cancel Culture" battlecries? Perhaps because, to have a discussion, one has to have good-faith actors on both sides of the discussion? If one goes into the discussion with 'I'm going to stop playing sports for you if you DON'T stop playing this song' or 'I'm going to stop donating to athletics if you DO stop playing this song,' then there's no discussion to be had--we're merely down to which entrenched party has more power and sway. While I see the merits of both sides in this debate, what's remarkable is how administrations at UT and most every other liberal arts college in the US have jettisoned their responsibilities as adults (and supposed intellectuals) to lead their students in the art of discussion over controversial issues. Especially when (1) that's what they're there for and (2) they hold most of the cards. This failure on their part is far worse than some squabble over a silly song.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > 'I'm going to stop playing sports for you if you DON'T stop playing this song' How about "I don't like that song, so I'm walking off the field before it is played" ?? The story here isn't "Students are forcing school to stop playing the song". (Indeed: the song was still played, and at least one player stood on the field through the duration of the song). The story is "Students are walking off field before song is finished". It doesn't seem like students are taking a very aggressive stance from my perspective. Then again, I never really liked the whole "school spirit" exercises that I was forced into... being a nerd and all.
    - mcguire 6y ago
      "...at least one player stood on the field through the duration of the song)..." He later said he was waiting to talk to the coaches. :-)
- mcguire 6y ago
  There is a bit more nuance to it than that. ""It's time for you to put the foot down and make it perfectly clear that the heritage of Texas will not be lost," wrote another donor who graduated in 1986. Their name was also redacted by UT-Austin. "It is sad that it is offending the blacks. As I said before the blacks are free and it's time for them to move on to another state where everything is in their favor."" I, personally (UTexas, 2004), couldn't give a rat's ass about The Eyes of Texas; I don't find it personally offensive, but I'm not the one to be offended by it (even though it's pretty bad). However, I am offended by the "arguments" presented in favor of it. Is discussing getting rid of the donors an option?
mcguire 6y ago
"The donors disagree with the ideological stance taken by the university, and so, stop donating." The ideological stance taken by students. "The university"---the administration---couldn't care less either way; they just want the donations and not to be embarrassed publicly. The ultimate question here is, "who is the university for?"

dragontamer 6y ago

> Doesn't this same logic apply to the donors though? Indeed! I find the entire "cancel culture" argument to be... well. a non-sequitur. Just a few years ago, when politics were all about whether or not a religious person should be forced to bake a cake for a Gay couple (Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado), we discussed the actual issue at play. Religious freedom vs Tolerance. Not everyone was pleased with the result, but we discussed the actual freaking issue at hand. Today, people just yell "Cancel Culture" and leave the argument. IMO, I find this entire methodology of discussing things non-helpful. --------- What we have here is: Alumni vs Students. One is in the right, one is in the wrong. Or maybe both are right, and both are wrong. Or all the above. Why don't we discuss the core issue at hand, instead of trying to derail the discussion using "Cancel Culture" battlecries?

atypicaluser 6y ago
> Why don't we discuss the core issue at hand, instead of trying to derail the discussion using "Cancel Culture" battlecries? Perhaps because, to have a discussion, one has to have good-faith actors on both sides of the discussion? If one goes into the discussion with 'I'm going to stop playing sports for you if you DON'T stop playing this song' or 'I'm going to stop donating to athletics if you DO stop playing this song,' then there's no discussion to be had--we're merely down to which entrenched party has more power and sway. While I see the merits of both sides in this debate, what's remarkable is how administrations at UT and most every other liberal arts college in the US have jettisoned their responsibilities as adults (and supposed intellectuals) to lead their students in the art of discussion over controversial issues. Especially when (1) that's what they're there for and (2) they hold most of the cards. This failure on their part is far worse than some squabble over a silly song.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > 'I'm going to stop playing sports for you if you DON'T stop playing this song' How about "I don't like that song, so I'm walking off the field before it is played" ?? The story here isn't "Students are forcing school to stop playing the song". (Indeed: the song was still played, and at least one player stood on the field through the duration of the song). The story is "Students are walking off field before song is finished". It doesn't seem like students are taking a very aggressive stance from my perspective. Then again, I never really liked the whole "school spirit" exercises that I was forced into... being a nerd and all.
  - mcguire 6y ago
    "...at least one player stood on the field through the duration of the song)..." He later said he was waiting to talk to the coaches. :-)
mcguire 6y ago
There is a bit more nuance to it than that. ""It's time for you to put the foot down and make it perfectly clear that the heritage of Texas will not be lost," wrote another donor who graduated in 1986. Their name was also redacted by UT-Austin. "It is sad that it is offending the blacks. As I said before the blacks are free and it's time for them to move on to another state where everything is in their favor."" I, personally (UTexas, 2004), couldn't give a rat's ass about The Eyes of Texas; I don't find it personally offensive, but I'm not the one to be offended by it (even though it's pretty bad). However, I am offended by the "arguments" presented in favor of it. Is discussing getting rid of the donors an option?

mcguire 6y ago

"The donors disagree with the ideological stance taken by the university, and so, stop donating." The ideological stance taken by students. "The university"---the administration---couldn't care less either way; they just want the donations and not to be embarrassed publicly. The ultimate question here is, "who is the university for?"