3 ms·

I have fiber and cable run for data. When an introductory offer ends, I call them up to cancel and if they won't make me a deal, I call the other provider and

I have fiber and cable run for data. When an introductory offer ends, I call them up to cancel and if they won't make me a deal, I call the other provider and move an rj45 from one jack to the one next to it until that introductory offer ends. Last mile doesn't have to be a monopoly.

toast0 6y ago
Last mile doesn't have to be a monopoly, but there's a clear limit to how many overbuilt networks can be supported. Very few organizations are willing to build a third network when an area is already covered by two networks; the cost to build is too high, and the number of customers you'll attract is too low; and the profit margins are too slim, given how quickly incumbent networks can be made competitive when there's a will. Vanishingly few would overbuild a fourth network. Often two, sometimes three, and almost never four competitors is not a healthy marketplace. There's no way for a regular person to say 'my ISP stinks, I'm going to go out and do a better job', like you could in the dial-up days by getting a T1 for data, and a T1 for users to call in on. Yes, T1s were expensive, but they weren't as expensive as wiring up to every customer. If we want competition in ISPs, we need local loop unbundling, but for realsies; the companies owning and operating last mile networks should be strictly separate from the companies providing Internet Protocol services on those networks.
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- mjevans 6y ago
  Where I live ( Suburbs around Seattle, NOT even close to rural ) for even the FFC's definition of broadband (25M bit down, I forget, like 1M bit up?), until VERY recently there has been exactly ONE provider. Comcast. Recently a real competitor opened up. Starlink. They're still more expensive but at least now I technically have a choice other than maybe 7M bit down not even 0.75M bit up DSL. (Century Link, formerly lots of other companies.)
  - d110af5ccf 6y ago
    > NOT even close to rural In Washington you can sometimes do better in certain rural counties thanks to municipal fiber networks maintained by the local PUD. However, the rules surrounding them appeared complicated last time I checked and last mile infrastructure varies wildly by location.
    - mjevans 6y ago
      They are, and IIRC they prevent real PUDs, what you're referring to is probably a private co-operative not technically a PUD. I believe sources have attributed the laws to incumbent providers (Think Comcast, USWest and either GTE or Verizon at the time, and whomever those properties have been resold / bought out by since then).
      - toast0 6y ago
        My county (Kitsap) seems to have a municipal PUD. From what I can tell, the rules prevent them from providing retail service; but if they service your building, you can pick from a list of ISPs that provide service. There's some sort of fallback option, where if there's no retail ISPs, the PUD can provide retail service; but I suspect it's pretty easy to provide retail service to any customer on the network once you're an ISP on the network. Maybe if you didn't want to drive all over the county to get on premises. What would be really nice (in my opinion) is if there was a way to share installation costs without organizing. I've got an installation quote where it's about $30k to build to my pole (and then $20k more to get from my pole to my building, because I have underground utilities from the pole and a long driveway). If I organize a bunch of neighbors along the route, we can share costs on that $30k; but if I just install for me, everyone else along the route can use it at no cost to them. It would be nice if I could pay the $30k now, and get some of that rebated later if other people use the line in some near term future. Although, probably the neighbors would just wait it out; Comcast serves most of them (but not me), and CenturyLink gets me 80/10 mbps on bonded VDSL2, so I imagine most of them can get pretty similar too.

toast0 6y ago

Last mile doesn't have to be a monopoly, but there's a clear limit to how many overbuilt networks can be supported. Very few organizations are willing to build a third network when an area is already covered by two networks; the cost to build is too high, and the number of customers you'll attract is too low; and the profit margins are too slim, given how quickly incumbent networks can be made competitive when there's a will. Vanishingly few would overbuild a fourth network. Often two, sometimes three, and almost never four competitors is not a healthy marketplace. There's no way for a regular person to say 'my ISP stinks, I'm going to go out and do a better job', like you could in the dial-up days by getting a T1 for data, and a T1 for users to call in on. Yes, T1s were expensive, but they weren't as expensive as wiring up to every customer. If we want competition in ISPs, we need local loop unbundling, but for realsies; the companies owning and operating last mile networks should be strictly separate from the companies providing Internet Protocol services on those networks.

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mjevans 6y ago
Where I live ( Suburbs around Seattle, NOT even close to rural ) for even the FFC's definition of broadband (25M bit down, I forget, like 1M bit up?), until VERY recently there has been exactly ONE provider. Comcast. Recently a real competitor opened up. Starlink. They're still more expensive but at least now I technically have a choice other than maybe 7M bit down not even 0.75M bit up DSL. (Century Link, formerly lots of other companies.)
- d110af5ccf 6y ago
  > NOT even close to rural In Washington you can sometimes do better in certain rural counties thanks to municipal fiber networks maintained by the local PUD. However, the rules surrounding them appeared complicated last time I checked and last mile infrastructure varies wildly by location.
  - mjevans 6y ago
    They are, and IIRC they prevent real PUDs, what you're referring to is probably a private co-operative not technically a PUD. I believe sources have attributed the laws to incumbent providers (Think Comcast, USWest and either GTE or Verizon at the time, and whomever those properties have been resold / bought out by since then).
    - toast0 6y ago
      My county (Kitsap) seems to have a municipal PUD. From what I can tell, the rules prevent them from providing retail service; but if they service your building, you can pick from a list of ISPs that provide service. There's some sort of fallback option, where if there's no retail ISPs, the PUD can provide retail service; but I suspect it's pretty easy to provide retail service to any customer on the network once you're an ISP on the network. Maybe if you didn't want to drive all over the county to get on premises. What would be really nice (in my opinion) is if there was a way to share installation costs without organizing. I've got an installation quote where it's about $30k to build to my pole (and then $20k more to get from my pole to my building, because I have underground utilities from the pole and a long driveway). If I organize a bunch of neighbors along the route, we can share costs on that $30k; but if I just install for me, everyone else along the route can use it at no cost to them. It would be nice if I could pay the $30k now, and get some of that rebated later if other people use the line in some near term future. Although, probably the neighbors would just wait it out; Comcast serves most of them (but not me), and CenturyLink gets me 80/10 mbps on bonded VDSL2, so I imagine most of them can get pretty similar too.