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The core problem isn't that the teenagers see it that way but that saying "My wife would kill me" indicates that he was seeing it that way himself at the time r

The core problem isn't that the teenagers see it that way but that saying "My wife would kill me" indicates that he was seeing it that way himself at the time rather than just seeing the people he was interviewing as people he was interviewing. His account shows that even after the teenagers complained he still didn't bother to find out why someone would find that offensive. I find it hard to believe that a long time NY Times reporter would never have received training on this, it is really basic stuff.

refurb 6y ago
“My wife would kill me” is a joke. It’s play on the fact that his wife knowing his job involved being around topless teenagers would upset her. Note, it wouldn’t actually upset her in the context it happened. I fail to understand how someone can be offended by a situation that has nothing to do with them other than hearing the story.
- joveian 6y ago
  I'm not convinced it is a joke, but certainly it could be. If so it is notably a sexist joke that sexualizes the people he is interviewing. It was not appropriate to make at the time nor to repeat. Of course the fact that he tells sexist jokes would be relevent to the people he is traveling with.
  - refurb 6y ago
    It’s a sexist joke? It’s suddenly sexist to tell a joke that highlights the differences in how cultures treat topless females? And it’s not sexualizing anything. It’s a joke about what his “work” is. God damn some people are wound tight. They just go looking to be offended. Maybe trying to seek moral high ground or something? It’s just odd.
tsimionescu 6y ago
No, it is simply a joke that plays on the difference in cultural significance of toplessness, and on his clahs of expectations at the time (he was expecting to interview one girl on a delicate subject, but found himself swarmed by 20 girls dressed in a way that is cause for embarrassment in his own culture). His account does show that he payed little mind to how the teenagers he was there to teach were likely taking his stories. He is guilty of misjudging his audience, and of making them feel uncomfortable. He is not guilty of anything else, at least based on his own account (obviously, reality may be arbitrarily different from his own account).
- joveian 6y ago
  I'm not convinced the cultural difference is necessarily all that large in practice. From the article he wrote, it isn't exactly a common thing there either but a special event. Obviously there is some difference in theory, but there seems to be some suggestion that they might be somewhat embarrassed as well due to it being unusual. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/22/world/enyokeni-royal-residence-journal-zulu-virgins-celebrate-their-bodies-themselves.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/22/world/enyokeni-royal-resi... It looks like he was 44 at the time of that article and 64 when he was in Peru. If you mean his "thought" process was likely embarassment -> make joke and nothing more, sure. But the reason it would be considered embarassing in the US is that women going topless is often considered sexual. And the joke he makes directly references that. He doesn't seem to be thinking much about the effect of his reaction on the people he is interviewing. Of course he is human and if sufficiently embarrased won't have a lot of thought prior to reaction (and it sounds like it could easily be the photographer intentionally provoking him knowing he won't react well), but he can still change how he reacts later and how or if he talks about the story later. I guess there are two basic (but not entirely different) reasons the teenagers in Peru could react negatively (maybe more). My guess is that they do not have the same cultural assumption as the reporter that being topless would necessarily be a sexual or embarrassing thing and find that assumption sexist. It sounds like your guess is that they do have a similar cultural assumption and are imagining this old reporter in a vaguely sexual situation with young women.

refurb 6y ago

“My wife would kill me” is a joke. It’s play on the fact that his wife knowing his job involved being around topless teenagers would upset her. Note, it wouldn’t actually upset her in the context it happened. I fail to understand how someone can be offended by a situation that has nothing to do with them other than hearing the story.

joveian 6y ago
I'm not convinced it is a joke, but certainly it could be. If so it is notably a sexist joke that sexualizes the people he is interviewing. It was not appropriate to make at the time nor to repeat. Of course the fact that he tells sexist jokes would be relevent to the people he is traveling with.
- refurb 6y ago
  It’s a sexist joke? It’s suddenly sexist to tell a joke that highlights the differences in how cultures treat topless females? And it’s not sexualizing anything. It’s a joke about what his “work” is. God damn some people are wound tight. They just go looking to be offended. Maybe trying to seek moral high ground or something? It’s just odd.

tsimionescu 6y ago

No, it is simply a joke that plays on the difference in cultural significance of toplessness, and on his clahs of expectations at the time (he was expecting to interview one girl on a delicate subject, but found himself swarmed by 20 girls dressed in a way that is cause for embarrassment in his own culture). His account does show that he payed little mind to how the teenagers he was there to teach were likely taking his stories. He is guilty of misjudging his audience, and of making them feel uncomfortable. He is not guilty of anything else, at least based on his own account (obviously, reality may be arbitrarily different from his own account).

joveian 6y ago
I'm not convinced the cultural difference is necessarily all that large in practice. From the article he wrote, it isn't exactly a common thing there either but a special event. Obviously there is some difference in theory, but there seems to be some suggestion that they might be somewhat embarrassed as well due to it being unusual. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/22/world/enyokeni-royal-residence-journal-zulu-virgins-celebrate-their-bodies-themselves.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/22/world/enyokeni-royal-resi... It looks like he was 44 at the time of that article and 64 when he was in Peru. If you mean his "thought" process was likely embarassment -> make joke and nothing more, sure. But the reason it would be considered embarassing in the US is that women going topless is often considered sexual. And the joke he makes directly references that. He doesn't seem to be thinking much about the effect of his reaction on the people he is interviewing. Of course he is human and if sufficiently embarrased won't have a lot of thought prior to reaction (and it sounds like it could easily be the photographer intentionally provoking him knowing he won't react well), but he can still change how he reacts later and how or if he talks about the story later. I guess there are two basic (but not entirely different) reasons the teenagers in Peru could react negatively (maybe more). My guess is that they do not have the same cultural assumption as the reporter that being topless would necessarily be a sexual or embarrassing thing and find that assumption sexist. It sounds like your guess is that they do have a similar cultural assumption and are imagining this old reporter in a vaguely sexual situation with young women.