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I think what's interesting is the moral policing is no longer coming from the religious right. I recommend "The Realignment" podcast which often discusses why

I think what's interesting is the moral policing is no longer coming from the religious right. I recommend "The Realignment" podcast which often discusses why this shift has occurred: https://the-realignment.simplecast.com/ https://the-realignment.simplecast.com/

mxcrossb 6y ago
I also find this topic far more interesting than the fairly cliche discussion over “cancel culture”. It seems like conservatives have caught up to post modernism, whereas liberals are now passionate about objective truth and morality being black and white. I really wonder how tenable these positions are going forward.
- rayiner 6y ago
  No conservatives are still conservatives. They don’t need to embrace post-modernism to oppose what they perceive as a heretical religion. Insofar as right-wing people now invoke the liberal notions of free expression it’s only because that was a middle ground that allowed coexistence and liberals are now sitting aside while progressives try to blow up that compromise. (And also because a bunch of center right people think it’s a good thing—it’s not like the right is uniformly absolutist evangelical types). Put differently, Christian evangelical are angry that liberals broke all these taboos in the name of free expression, and now progressives are trying to treat Christian evangelical beliefs as the basis for cancellation. There is nothing hypocritical or contradictory about this.
  - mxcrossb 6y ago
    The fact that you go to the word “hypocritical” makes me think we’re already in agreement on the basic point. I’m not trying to make a value judgement here. Go look at these arguments about confederate statues. Liberals condemn the moral faults of the person. Conservatives excuse it as values of the time; moreover they appeal to the virtue the society has chosen for the statue to represent. There’s nothing more post modern than that. From your post, it seems your view is that conservatives adopted these tools because they are the tools of an oppressed minority, which conservatives now perceive themselves to be. I think that very well might be the right explanation. But I also wonder if this shift is more of a demographics thing. Post modernism can’t be the young, hip mindset for the rest of human history. I wonder if young people today are carving out some new view of the world, which is far more interesting to me than arguments over celebrity Twitter accounts.
- taurath 6y ago
  I’d rather have them vigorously defending for their right to be a bigot than be a bigot actually with cultural power, having grown up during the latter. Free expression of contrary views is also important (though not ALL contrary views). What I think will happen is further Balkanization of the internet. We can’t all play in the exact same sandbox. Echo chambers are not new - people lived within distinct communities before the internet. I lived in a 50/50 liberal conservative town growing up and I interacted with only other kids of conservatives outside of school. Now if we could have platforms that didn’t reward shallow engagements maybe we could get somewhere.
  - ebcode 6y ago
    > Now if we could have platforms that didn’t reward shallow engagements maybe we could get somewhere. ... and that is precisely why I find HN (despite its flaws) to be one of the most interesting places for discourse. The aggressive moderation by dang and friends gives this forum a coherence that is hard to find anywhere else.
dragonwriter 6y ago
>>I think what's interesting is the moral policing is no longer coming from the religious right. The right (religious and otherwise) hasn't reduced it's policing of ideological orthodoxy at all. Now, if you threw “exclusively” into that sentence, there might be something like a point.
- nyolfen 6y ago
  maybe internally, but i haven't heard of conservatives getting random kids on twitter expelled from school lately
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > haven't heard of conservatives getting random kids on twitter expelled from school lately I have, for actual kids (as in children, not young adults), including lately. Usually for something like “their mother has an OnlyFans page”.
    - hda2 6y ago
      Source please.
      - ihartley 6y ago
        https://lmgtfy.app/?q=kid+expelled+mom+onlyfans https://lmgtfy.app/?q=kid+expelled+mom+onlyfans
    - nyolfen 6y ago
      this example is obviously reprehensible but does not seem like the same phenomenon
abathur 6y ago
I agree that parts of the left are engaged in moral policing, but I think you may be mis-speaking when you say it is "no longer coming from the religious right." I think it still is, it just isn't a monopoly?
stjohnswarts 6y ago
It's coming from both sides you can't deny that. Look at the dangerous appointments made to the judicial branch. While the far left dominate twitter and social media and try to cancel everyone the evangelicals are doing pretty well at cancelling liberal voting rights and women's rights if you aren't paying attention. It's as if people things others don't have a right to think in any way other than the way they think and live.
- rayiner 6y ago
  ACB is so “dangerous” she might vote to overturn Roe and thereby make abortion a legislative rather than constitutional issue, as in almost every developed country such as France. https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2524&context=lawreview https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2.... Far-right wing ACB might possibly vote the same way as the ... European Court of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland > A, B and C v Ireland is a landmark 2010 case of the European Court of Human Rights on the right to privacy under Article 8. The court rejected the argument that article 8 conferred a right to abortion Or maybe the Overton window has just shifted very left in the US about what social issues are human rights and what can properly be decided by legislative majorities? And if far-right ACB were successful in making the right to privacy in the US similar to the one under the European Convention on Human Rights, the US states would be free to draw the line for on-demand abortions without any medical emergencies at 12-13 weeks, like nearly all European countries do and 70% of Americans support, instead of at 22-26 weeks, as is required by Roe. https://www.france24.com/en/20180525-abortion-laws-vary-eu-ireland-malta-poland-termination https://www.france24.com/en/20180525-abortion-laws-vary-eu-i.... https://news.gallup.com/poll/235469/trimesters-key-abortion-views.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/235469/trimesters-key-abortion-... Of course, overturning Roe isn’t really in the cards. There are just 3 votes for it. In June Medical just two Justices, (not including ACB, who was not yet on the Court) signaled a willingness to overturn Roe. Unlike deciding a case in the first instance, overruling an existing precedent is an act of discretion. A Justice who disagrees with the merits can (and likely will) still support to uphold the precedent. Much more likely than ACB overturning Ginsberg’s legacy with respect to abortion is ACB upholding Ginsberg’s legacy with respect to the Equal Protection Clause. At the ACLU, Ginsberg built that legacy on a textualist interpretation of the Equal Protection Clause, challenging laws that discriminated against men supposedly to benefit women as violations of equal protection. Under the current progressive worldview, that literal interpretation of “equal” treatment under the law will prove an impediment to importing critical theory into the law. That area, where the precedent isn’t as clear cut, is much more likely to be an area where ACB has an impact.
nine_k 6y ago
Well, yes, some Left are no less religious, even if their religion is not the old Christianity usually confessed by the traditional Right. If you look at the history of 20th century, you may find a number of instances when e.g. Communism was professed (and enforced) with a truly religious fervor and lack of doubt. Ironically, the same thing happens time and again to Atheism.

mxcrossb 6y ago

I also find this topic far more interesting than the fairly cliche discussion over “cancel culture”. It seems like conservatives have caught up to post modernism, whereas liberals are now passionate about objective truth and morality being black and white. I really wonder how tenable these positions are going forward.

rayiner 6y ago
No conservatives are still conservatives. They don’t need to embrace post-modernism to oppose what they perceive as a heretical religion. Insofar as right-wing people now invoke the liberal notions of free expression it’s only because that was a middle ground that allowed coexistence and liberals are now sitting aside while progressives try to blow up that compromise. (And also because a bunch of center right people think it’s a good thing—it’s not like the right is uniformly absolutist evangelical types). Put differently, Christian evangelical are angry that liberals broke all these taboos in the name of free expression, and now progressives are trying to treat Christian evangelical beliefs as the basis for cancellation. There is nothing hypocritical or contradictory about this.
- mxcrossb 6y ago
  The fact that you go to the word “hypocritical” makes me think we’re already in agreement on the basic point. I’m not trying to make a value judgement here. Go look at these arguments about confederate statues. Liberals condemn the moral faults of the person. Conservatives excuse it as values of the time; moreover they appeal to the virtue the society has chosen for the statue to represent. There’s nothing more post modern than that. From your post, it seems your view is that conservatives adopted these tools because they are the tools of an oppressed minority, which conservatives now perceive themselves to be. I think that very well might be the right explanation. But I also wonder if this shift is more of a demographics thing. Post modernism can’t be the young, hip mindset for the rest of human history. I wonder if young people today are carving out some new view of the world, which is far more interesting to me than arguments over celebrity Twitter accounts.
taurath 6y ago
I’d rather have them vigorously defending for their right to be a bigot than be a bigot actually with cultural power, having grown up during the latter. Free expression of contrary views is also important (though not ALL contrary views). What I think will happen is further Balkanization of the internet. We can’t all play in the exact same sandbox. Echo chambers are not new - people lived within distinct communities before the internet. I lived in a 50/50 liberal conservative town growing up and I interacted with only other kids of conservatives outside of school. Now if we could have platforms that didn’t reward shallow engagements maybe we could get somewhere.
- ebcode 6y ago
  > Now if we could have platforms that didn’t reward shallow engagements maybe we could get somewhere. ... and that is precisely why I find HN (despite its flaws) to be one of the most interesting places for discourse. The aggressive moderation by dang and friends gives this forum a coherence that is hard to find anywhere else.

dragonwriter 6y ago

>>I think what's interesting is the moral policing is no longer coming from the religious right. The right (religious and otherwise) hasn't reduced it's policing of ideological orthodoxy at all. Now, if you threw “exclusively” into that sentence, there might be something like a point.

nyolfen 6y ago
maybe internally, but i haven't heard of conservatives getting random kids on twitter expelled from school lately
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > haven't heard of conservatives getting random kids on twitter expelled from school lately I have, for actual kids (as in children, not young adults), including lately. Usually for something like “their mother has an OnlyFans page”.
  - hda2 6y ago
    Source please.
    - ihartley 6y ago
      https://lmgtfy.app/?q=kid+expelled+mom+onlyfans https://lmgtfy.app/?q=kid+expelled+mom+onlyfans
  - nyolfen 6y ago
    this example is obviously reprehensible but does not seem like the same phenomenon

abathur 6y ago

I agree that parts of the left are engaged in moral policing, but I think you may be mis-speaking when you say it is "no longer coming from the religious right." I think it still is, it just isn't a monopoly?

stjohnswarts 6y ago

It's coming from both sides you can't deny that. Look at the dangerous appointments made to the judicial branch. While the far left dominate twitter and social media and try to cancel everyone the evangelicals are doing pretty well at cancelling liberal voting rights and women's rights if you aren't paying attention. It's as if people things others don't have a right to think in any way other than the way they think and live.

rayiner 6y ago
ACB is so “dangerous” she might vote to overturn Roe and thereby make abortion a legislative rather than constitutional issue, as in almost every developed country such as France. https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2524&context=lawreview https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2.... Far-right wing ACB might possibly vote the same way as the ... European Court of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland > A, B and C v Ireland is a landmark 2010 case of the European Court of Human Rights on the right to privacy under Article 8. The court rejected the argument that article 8 conferred a right to abortion Or maybe the Overton window has just shifted very left in the US about what social issues are human rights and what can properly be decided by legislative majorities? And if far-right ACB were successful in making the right to privacy in the US similar to the one under the European Convention on Human Rights, the US states would be free to draw the line for on-demand abortions without any medical emergencies at 12-13 weeks, like nearly all European countries do and 70% of Americans support, instead of at 22-26 weeks, as is required by Roe. https://www.france24.com/en/20180525-abortion-laws-vary-eu-ireland-malta-poland-termination https://www.france24.com/en/20180525-abortion-laws-vary-eu-i.... https://news.gallup.com/poll/235469/trimesters-key-abortion-views.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/235469/trimesters-key-abortion-... Of course, overturning Roe isn’t really in the cards. There are just 3 votes for it. In June Medical just two Justices, (not including ACB, who was not yet on the Court) signaled a willingness to overturn Roe. Unlike deciding a case in the first instance, overruling an existing precedent is an act of discretion. A Justice who disagrees with the merits can (and likely will) still support to uphold the precedent. Much more likely than ACB overturning Ginsberg’s legacy with respect to abortion is ACB upholding Ginsberg’s legacy with respect to the Equal Protection Clause. At the ACLU, Ginsberg built that legacy on a textualist interpretation of the Equal Protection Clause, challenging laws that discriminated against men supposedly to benefit women as violations of equal protection. Under the current progressive worldview, that literal interpretation of “equal” treatment under the law will prove an impediment to importing critical theory into the law. That area, where the precedent isn’t as clear cut, is much more likely to be an area where ACB has an impact.

nine_k 6y ago

Well, yes, some Left are no less religious, even if their religion is not the old Christianity usually confessed by the traditional Right. If you look at the history of 20th century, you may find a number of instances when e.g. Communism was professed (and enforced) with a truly religious fervor and lack of doubt. Ironically, the same thing happens time and again to Atheism.