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This FEELS (not saying it is) like a false claim. Much like the much upvoted (and later debunked) HN post from a while back when a iOS developer claimed that

This *FEELS* (not saying it is) like a false claim. Much like the much upvoted (and later debunked) HN post from a while back when a iOS developer claimed that Apple always keeps it 30% commission, even on a refunded purchase. I consider it worrying that a claim wholly lacking evidence is getting so much attention. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23995750 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23995750

ziml77 6y ago
I keep refreshing these comments and the twitter thread to see if any better info is provided. This is the kind of thing that could be a mistake on Apple's side, could be a lie from the user, or could be a misunderstanding of what actually happened.
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  I don't think the OP is lying. Their account was probably locked because they missed a payment. I do think this is a misunderstanding of what's happening. They're paying for iCloud with their Apple Card. If that payment fails, the account can be locked. So it's not "Missing a payment on the Apple Card locks your account" it might be "Missing an iCloud Payment locks your account." They also say the iCloud payment wasn't past due. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some weird edge case or bug that caused the account to be locked.
  - yardie 6y ago
    This doesn’t sound like how iCloud, Apple Card, and Apple ID work. I stopped paying for iCloud and it didn’t diable my Apple ID nor my Apple Card. Also you don’t have past due iCloud accounts. You stop paying iCloud services stop working for you. Sounds like something else is a going on here.
dcurtis 6y ago
I didn't expect that tweet to get so much attention; I'll write up some more details shortly.
- sksixk 6y ago
  Seriously?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
totalZero 6y ago
Do you have any evidence aside from a feeling? Just curious.
- rblatz 6y ago
  This would be egregious behavior by Apple, and the Apple Card has been out long enough that there would be numerous reports of this that gained steam by now. It's also been out long enough and distributed to enough people that someone somewhere was likely to encounter two issues with Apple at about the same time. So it's much more likely that Apple doesn't just suspend all your accounts until you pay up.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    That's a very different argument from "this feels false," which is just some subjective bullshit. However, your argument is little better. You're saying "it stands to reason that a widely used product would have already hit this corner case by now." The problem with your argument is that it's a tautology. If in fact the statement by dcurtis is the first efflorescence of the problem, your line of thinking would reject it anyway. That's why it's useless to say "this feels wrong" or even "surely we would know by now." The guy who wrote the tweet has already said here in HN comments that he will substantiate what he wrote, so it seems unnecessary to dogpile the skepticism and "feelings" in the interim. You don't have to accept a logical proposition in order to consider/entertain it.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > If in fact the statement by dcurtis is the first efflorescence of the problem, your line of thinking would reject it anyway. This is true, but we have to take it in context. How likely is it that this is the policy, and we’ve never heard about it before now? The card has been our for a couple of years. Millions of people are using it. This implies 10s of millions of payments. At a conservative estimate this would mean there must have been thousands of missed payments, and therefore thousands of locked Apple accounts. It therefore seems unlikely we wouldn’t have heard about it. I could of course be wrong as could the GP, because this is just a probability estimate. But that’s all the GP is saying.
nemothekid 6y ago
Yes, I don't think Apple Card has anything to do with it - I think his iCloud subscription was past due and that was that disabled his account - and then he found himself in a Catch 22 where he couldn't update/pay his Apple Card because he was locked out of iCloud. I'd imagine the same would have happened if he let his Visa card lapse.
- dcurtis 6y ago
  Nope -- iCloud was not past due. It is an Apple Card policy.
  - subhro 6y ago
    Can you point out any public documentation about this policy?
  - jbtule 6y ago
    Apples Customer agreement-> Definition -> “Account” means the Apple Card consumer credit account opened for you under this Agreement Default actions -> WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF BEING IN DEFAULT If you are in default, we may take any of the following actions to the extent permitted under applicable law: • Continue to charge you interest as long as you have an outstanding Account balance; • Lower your credit limit; • Decline or otherwise limit your ability to make Transactions; • Report information about your Account to the credit reporting bureaus; • Begin collections activities; • Suspend or close your Account; • Require you to immediately pay all or any portion of your total outstanding balance (this action may also be taken upon death); • If we retain an attorney who is not our salaried employee to collect amounts you owe, we may require you to pay for the court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees that we actually incur; and/or • Take any other action permitted by law.
    - dmix 6y ago
      > Suspend or close your Account I guess account is one whole system the way they built it so it includes his iCloud and whatnot. This should be last resort solution for Apple. I’m thinking well past 3 months of notifications or something, maybe even a year, considering it goes beyond just the card itself. Or just not have it affect other services at all.
Spooky23 6y ago
It's just noise/bullshit on Twitter. The Apple Card t&c are here: https://www.goldmansachs.com/terms-and-conditions/Apple-Card-Customer-Agreement.pdf https://www.goldmansachs.com/terms-and-conditions/Apple-Card... They prominently mention any reference to iCloud, etc as your "Apple ID" and "account" is used with respect to the financial account. On page 11, consequences of "Default" include suspension of your "account". You are required to use a "Required Device", and specifically an Apple ID in "good standing" with Apple and Apple two-factor auth. My guess is that if anything happened to this guy, he did something to fubar his Apple ID, which then fubared his Apple Card.
breck 6y ago
This is not a false claim. I didn't miss a payment, but complained about a $10 WaPost recurring charge via their chat support and they went ahead and locked my account (I think they were trying to be helpful but this fucked things up royally). This was many months ago. The support has been nice, but completely neutered. I have screenshots. I've spoken to 8 people and no one can figure it out. I can't log in, pay, or close the account. The only way I still know there is some account in the ether is I get notifications on my phone that I'm being charged interest and letters in the mail I'm being charged interest. For the record, I always pay the balance in full and until this I loved the UI and the product. But boy what a fucked up support experience and they should probably end relationship with Goldman and just stick to apple pay. There are about 6 points of total failure in the support experience. I could only spend so many hours holding their fucking hands before I had to give up. I emailed TCook about this on 11/10/2020. I greatly regret signing up for Apple Card and please DON'T. It was the best card until it stopped working, then it's the worse card I've ever had. I stick to Apple Pay now with an amex. I'd also recommend using PayPal for recurring charged. 1 click to see all recurring charges and 1 click to cancel. Apple needs this ASAP.
- URSpider94 6y ago
  This has nothing to do with the Twitter complaint. Are you locked out of iCloud? If not, then it’s not the same at all.
  - breck 6y ago
    I had to change all my iCloud credentials. I couldn't believe there was any linkages between the 2 things. Seemed insane and dangerous to me. Luckily I was able to get back into my iCloud/Apple. I just assumed the Apple Card was like any credit card. But I learned the hard way that it is not, and it's dangerous to mess with.

This *FEELS* (not saying it is) like a false claim. Much like the much upvoted (and later debunked) HN post from a while back when a iOS developer claimed that

ziml77 6y ago

I keep refreshing these comments and the twitter thread to see if any better info is provided. This is the kind of thing that could be a mistake on Apple's side, could be a lie from the user, or could be a misunderstanding of what actually happened.

RandallBrown 6y ago
I don't think the OP is lying. Their account was probably locked because they missed a payment. I do think this is a misunderstanding of what's happening. They're paying for iCloud with their Apple Card. If that payment fails, the account can be locked. So it's not "Missing a payment on the Apple Card locks your account" it might be "Missing an iCloud Payment locks your account." They also say the iCloud payment wasn't past due. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some weird edge case or bug that caused the account to be locked.
- yardie 6y ago
  This doesn’t sound like how iCloud, Apple Card, and Apple ID work. I stopped paying for iCloud and it didn’t diable my Apple ID nor my Apple Card. Also you don’t have past due iCloud accounts. You stop paying iCloud services stop working for you. Sounds like something else is a going on here.

dcurtis 6y ago

I didn't expect that tweet to get so much attention; I'll write up some more details shortly.

sksixk 6y ago
Seriously?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

totalZero 6y ago

Do you have any evidence aside from a feeling? Just curious.

rblatz 6y ago
This would be egregious behavior by Apple, and the Apple Card has been out long enough that there would be numerous reports of this that gained steam by now. It's also been out long enough and distributed to enough people that someone somewhere was likely to encounter two issues with Apple at about the same time. So it's much more likely that Apple doesn't just suspend all your accounts until you pay up.
- totalZero 6y ago
  That's a very different argument from "this feels false," which is just some subjective bullshit. However, your argument is little better. You're saying "it stands to reason that a widely used product would have already hit this corner case by now." The problem with your argument is that it's a tautology. If in fact the statement by dcurtis is the first efflorescence of the problem, your line of thinking would reject it anyway. That's why it's useless to say "this feels wrong" or even "surely we would know by now." The guy who wrote the tweet has already said here in HN comments that he will substantiate what he wrote, so it seems unnecessary to dogpile the skepticism and "feelings" in the interim. You don't have to accept a logical proposition in order to consider/entertain it.
  - zepto 6y ago
    > If in fact the statement by dcurtis is the first efflorescence of the problem, your line of thinking would reject it anyway. This is true, but we have to take it in context. How likely is it that this is the policy, and we’ve never heard about it before now? The card has been our for a couple of years. Millions of people are using it. This implies 10s of millions of payments. At a conservative estimate this would mean there must have been thousands of missed payments, and therefore thousands of locked Apple accounts. It therefore seems unlikely we wouldn’t have heard about it. I could of course be wrong as could the GP, because this is just a probability estimate. But that’s all the GP is saying.

nemothekid 6y ago

Yes, I don't think Apple Card has anything to do with it - I think his iCloud subscription was past due and that was that disabled his account - and then he found himself in a Catch 22 where he couldn't update/pay his Apple Card because he was locked out of iCloud. I'd imagine the same would have happened if he let his Visa card lapse.

dcurtis 6y ago
Nope -- iCloud was not past due. It is an Apple Card policy.
- subhro 6y ago
  Can you point out any public documentation about this policy?
- jbtule 6y ago
  Apples Customer agreement-> Definition -> “Account” means the Apple Card consumer credit account opened for you under this Agreement Default actions -> WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF BEING IN DEFAULT If you are in default, we may take any of the following actions to the extent permitted under applicable law: • Continue to charge you interest as long as you have an outstanding Account balance; • Lower your credit limit; • Decline or otherwise limit your ability to make Transactions; • Report information about your Account to the credit reporting bureaus; • Begin collections activities; • Suspend or close your Account; • Require you to immediately pay all or any portion of your total outstanding balance (this action may also be taken upon death); • If we retain an attorney who is not our salaried employee to collect amounts you owe, we may require you to pay for the court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees that we actually incur; and/or • Take any other action permitted by law.
  - dmix 6y ago
    > Suspend or close your Account I guess account is one whole system the way they built it so it includes his iCloud and whatnot. This should be last resort solution for Apple. I’m thinking well past 3 months of notifications or something, maybe even a year, considering it goes beyond just the card itself. Or just not have it affect other services at all.

Spooky23 6y ago

It's just noise/bullshit on Twitter. The Apple Card t&c are here: https://www.goldmansachs.com/terms-and-conditions/Apple-Card-Customer-Agreement.pdf https://www.goldmansachs.com/terms-and-conditions/Apple-Card... They prominently mention any reference to iCloud, etc as your "Apple ID" and "account" is used with respect to the financial account. On page 11, consequences of "Default" include suspension of your "account". You are required to use a "Required Device", and specifically an Apple ID in "good standing" with Apple and Apple two-factor auth. My guess is that if anything happened to this guy, he did something to fubar his Apple ID, which then fubared his Apple Card.

breck 6y ago

This is not a false claim. I didn't miss a payment, but complained about a $10 WaPost recurring charge via their chat support and they went ahead and locked my account (I think they were trying to be helpful but this fucked things up royally). This was many months ago. The support has been nice, but completely neutered. I have screenshots. I've spoken to 8 people and no one can figure it out. I can't log in, pay, or close the account. The only way I still know there is some account in the ether is I get notifications on my phone that I'm being charged interest and letters in the mail I'm being charged interest. For the record, I always pay the balance in full and until this I loved the UI and the product. But boy what a fucked up support experience and they should probably end relationship with Goldman and just stick to apple pay. There are about 6 points of total failure in the support experience. I could only spend so many hours holding their fucking hands before I had to give up. I emailed TCook about this on 11/10/2020. I greatly regret signing up for Apple Card and please DON'T. It was the best card until it stopped working, then it's the worse card I've ever had. I stick to Apple Pay now with an amex. I'd also recommend using PayPal for recurring charged. 1 click to see all recurring charges and 1 click to cancel. Apple needs this ASAP.

URSpider94 6y ago
This has nothing to do with the Twitter complaint. Are you locked out of iCloud? If not, then it’s not the same at all.
- breck 6y ago
  I had to change all my iCloud credentials. I couldn't believe there was any linkages between the 2 things. Seemed insane and dangerous to me. Luckily I was able to get back into my iCloud/Apple. I just assumed the Apple Card was like any credit card. But I learned the hard way that it is not, and it's dangerous to mess with.