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I agree, people give US companies way to much slack... But then what am I supposed to do if I'm European? The US and China pretty much covers the mobile market

I agree, people give US companies way to much slack... But then what am I supposed to do if I'm European? The US and China pretty much covers the mobile market (and what's not covered is still not European).

walrus01 6y ago
From a purely pragmatic point of view: If you're European...? Consider that your country is likely either already a five eyes member, or a "five eyes plus" member with a historical record going back 45+ years of intelligence/law enforcement data sharing between the various NATO governments' intelligence agencies. And take a risk calculation, based on what you're doing in your life, if all your metadata and traffic was in the hands of the NSA, what's the most likely end result that might affect you adversely? Are you actually at risk of being persecuted for anything you're doing socially, religiously, politically? For instance, if you're a German, is all of your data being in the hands of the BND going to result in anything bad happening to you?
- neltnerb 6y ago
  From a purely pragmatic point of view, a lot of especially Eastern Europe and Eastern Germany are viscerally aware that "anything you're doing socially, religiously, politically" will always somehow include something illegal and worrying about surveillance results in self-censorship. I really don't think that's unreasonable, the fall of the berlin wall was within living memory. I hope that the NSA isn't going to do anything too, but the idea that they can't or won't is clearly not true. Staying under the radar might feel pragmatic, but I think a lot of people realize that's entirely inadequate with constantly shifting political environments.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    I am not a European but I am fairly sure I would have two very different opinions on this, relative to my personal perceived level of threat from my own national government, if I were a citizen and resident of the Netherlands or, for instance, Belarus.
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  Considering the current target of deplatforming is the far-right, and given Germany's history specifically, they have a lot of reasons not to trust local hardware and software. The same goes for the Le Pen crowd in France, a somewhat adversarial government on the other side of the globe is often less risky than the status quo across the pond allied to the current French establishment.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    I was wondering how long it would take until we got to the argument of "oh no, won't somebody please think of the unfortunate oppressed fascists! it's a good thing that xiaomi has phones and software for them, because their own local european government is against them". The paradox of tolerance and an open society is that if you allow actual fascism to flourish (and Le Pen is absolutely a fascist, in my opinion), you risk ending up with something much worse in the long run.
    - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
      That's not a very valid argument in a thread about information security.
    - robertlagrant 6y ago
      The paradox of oppressing in the name of opposing oppression is that it is already something much worse.
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      "oh no, won't somebody please think of the unfortunate oppressed fascists!.. Except anyone that you want to oppress will retroactively be labelled "fascist", or "far-right" by whatever loose system serves that purpose. The latest version of "terrorist", "activist" or "heretic". and Le Pen is absolutely a fascist, in my opinion But whose opinion is canon in matters of censorship? Le Pen is also a valid political candidate with fair support in her electorate. Consider this - If a "fascist" is democratically elected, what wins: anti-fascism (presumably from the perspective of an opposing 3rd party, as Le Pen doesn't describe herself as a fascist); or democracy? so you say "if you allow actual fascism to flourish.. something much worse in the long run" - who gets to decide what is "allowed", and what isn't? Seems to me the basis for such stability would have nothing to do with subjective judgements of what constitutes "fascism" - and more to do with principles of democracy - i.e. a fascist entity can be democratically elected - it just can't be given powers that would allow it to override democracy, or escape legal oversight. Perhaps the key word is "extralegal"? The problem is that too many political entities (not just far-right) seek extralegal, overreaching powers; believing it OK so long as "they can be trusted"; but if the king of today is a good king, his heir might still be bad. And the good government that allows for overreach enables the bad government that does the same.
- MaanuAir 6y ago
  Threat model, I get that. The simple fact that this explanation can exist and is somewhat commonly agreed by tech-savvy people is... disturbing in some way. I mean, underlying are freedom, rights, security, surveillance, But also geopolitics, economics, philosophy maybe. Just behind some daily tech.
Keyframe 6y ago
The US and China pretty much covers the mobile market (and what's not covered is still not European). Remember when this was the other way around? How did we come to this in ~two decades?
- usr1106 6y ago
  I know first hand that Nokia top and middle management understood nothing about software development or quality. The tools and practices used in the whole development were horrible. After a couple of years they just drowned in bugs and new products came slower and slower, failed projects more and more frequent. I have no idea whether it's equally bad at Google/Android or Apple. I have the feeling it's not. I don't think China really dominates in software world-wide. Xiaomi seems more like an exception to me. Hardware is a different story.

walrus01 6y ago

From a purely pragmatic point of view: If you're European...? Consider that your country is likely either already a five eyes member, or a "five eyes plus" member with a historical record going back 45+ years of intelligence/law enforcement data sharing between the various NATO governments' intelligence agencies. And take a risk calculation, based on what you're doing in your life, if all your metadata and traffic was in the hands of the NSA, what's the most likely end result that might affect you adversely? Are you actually at risk of being persecuted for anything you're doing socially, religiously, politically? For instance, if you're a German, is all of your data being in the hands of the BND going to result in anything bad happening to you?

neltnerb 6y ago
From a purely pragmatic point of view, a lot of especially Eastern Europe and Eastern Germany are viscerally aware that "anything you're doing socially, religiously, politically" will always somehow include something illegal and worrying about surveillance results in self-censorship. I really don't think that's unreasonable, the fall of the berlin wall was within living memory. I hope that the NSA isn't going to do anything too, but the idea that they can't or won't is clearly not true. Staying under the radar might feel pragmatic, but I think a lot of people realize that's entirely inadequate with constantly shifting political environments.
- walrus01 6y ago
  I am not a European but I am fairly sure I would have two very different opinions on this, relative to my personal perceived level of threat from my own national government, if I were a citizen and resident of the Netherlands or, for instance, Belarus.
ampdepolymerase 6y ago
Considering the current target of deplatforming is the far-right, and given Germany's history specifically, they have a lot of reasons not to trust local hardware and software. The same goes for the Le Pen crowd in France, a somewhat adversarial government on the other side of the globe is often less risky than the status quo across the pond allied to the current French establishment.
- walrus01 6y ago
  I was wondering how long it would take until we got to the argument of "oh no, won't somebody please think of the unfortunate oppressed fascists! it's a good thing that xiaomi has phones and software for them, because their own local european government is against them". The paradox of tolerance and an open society is that if you allow actual fascism to flourish (and Le Pen is absolutely a fascist, in my opinion), you risk ending up with something much worse in the long run.
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    That's not a very valid argument in a thread about information security.
  - robertlagrant 6y ago
    The paradox of oppressing in the name of opposing oppression is that it is already something much worse.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    "oh no, won't somebody please think of the unfortunate oppressed fascists!.. Except anyone that you want to oppress will retroactively be labelled "fascist", or "far-right" by whatever loose system serves that purpose. The latest version of "terrorist", "activist" or "heretic". and Le Pen is absolutely a fascist, in my opinion But whose opinion is canon in matters of censorship? Le Pen is also a valid political candidate with fair support in her electorate. Consider this - If a "fascist" is democratically elected, what wins: anti-fascism (presumably from the perspective of an opposing 3rd party, as Le Pen doesn't describe herself as a fascist); or democracy? so you say "if you allow actual fascism to flourish.. something much worse in the long run" - who gets to decide what is "allowed", and what isn't? Seems to me the basis for such stability would have nothing to do with subjective judgements of what constitutes "fascism" - and more to do with principles of democracy - i.e. a fascist entity can be democratically elected - it just can't be given powers that would allow it to override democracy, or escape legal oversight. Perhaps the key word is "extralegal"? The problem is that too many political entities (not just far-right) seek extralegal, overreaching powers; believing it OK so long as "they can be trusted"; but if the king of today is a good king, his heir might still be bad. And the good government that allows for overreach enables the bad government that does the same.
MaanuAir 6y ago
Threat model, I get that. The simple fact that this explanation can exist and is somewhat commonly agreed by tech-savvy people is... disturbing in some way. I mean, underlying are freedom, rights, security, surveillance, But also geopolitics, economics, philosophy maybe. Just behind some daily tech.

Keyframe 6y ago

The US and China pretty much covers the mobile market (and what's not covered is still not European). Remember when this was the other way around? How did we come to this in ~two decades?

usr1106 6y ago
I know first hand that Nokia top and middle management understood nothing about software development or quality. The tools and practices used in the whole development were horrible. After a couple of years they just drowned in bugs and new products came slower and slower, failed projects more and more frequent. I have no idea whether it's equally bad at Google/Android or Apple. I have the feeling it's not. I don't think China really dominates in software world-wide. Xiaomi seems more like an exception to me. Hardware is a different story.