6 ms·

When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do (which is not always wise) rather than just what they should do. B

When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do (which is not always wise) rather than just what they should do. But when actually struggling (or perhaps even when comfortable), you should forget about policy and fairness and just make the best decisions you can and keep trying to do the right thing, and that gives you or your children or grandchildren the best chance to make it to a comfortable place. You are obvioualy wearing your policymaking hat. Unfortunately, policymaking is and endless mess of arguing and distracts real people from doing the right thing. Calling things "unfair", even if true, is discouraging for struggling people and makes them less likely to succeed if they listen to you. The fact is that there's a lot of opportunity here, and a lot of people in the world realize that and come here to realize the opportunity. Any message of unfairness, in my opinion, should be coupled with the context that the best way forward is still by prudent choices and a multi-generational outlook. Like so many immigrants have. You call poverty a "trap", but part of that is imposed by a given location. That coal mining town might never come back, and opportunities will be scarce. But growing cities will always offer opportunity to newcomers. It's much easier to "immigrate" from a declining city/town to a growing one than from another country. This is not to say that we can't improve policy. We can. But the constant drumbeat of unfairness and victimhood is a counterproductive tactic in the policymaking process.

Gravityloss 6y ago
Seems high crime rate decreases the efficiency and well being of societies a lot. The person can't live in a dense area and must have a car, to avoid other people since they are potentially dangerous. Also their workplace is in a dangerous area. So a large portion of their money goes to transportation and housing. What if they were just as poor but the crime rate in general was just lower? They could live in dense housing and use public transport all day, as could the spouse and the kids. To an outsider, this seems like a really big factor.
estaseuropano 6y ago
How about a reality hat: the world does not offer everyone equal chances. You live in a country surrounded by fences and border patrol exactly to keep those that were less lucky from trying to get some of that luck. Even when born in the country, there are better and worse schools, better and worse social infrastructure, a billion different glass ceilings according to color, gender, age, accent or faith. Your comment perpetuates the eternal lie that everyone can rise to the top, but we all know that some have a 50% chance and others a 0.0005% chance to 'make it'. It's absurd to blame the kid with a bad school and no breakfast for not living up to the highest moral standards and take all the right decisions when they have probably barely to no good advice, guidance or role models. Its easy to judge, but try to empathise. That's not a policy hat, it's acknowledging reality.
- nostrademons 6y ago
  I saw nothing of the sort in chmod600's comment. They even led with "When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do." Policymakers in Washington and poor immigrants on the streets need different advice, because they control different things. If you are President or Congressperson in the U.S.A, then by all means: let's have a more humane immigration system, and universal health care, and a social safety net. But if you're a poor immigrant in this country, none of that policy is up to you. Non-citizens don't get to vote; Congresspeople do not listen to them. They risk being deported for the slightest infraction. They often require their employer to sponsor their continued stay in the U.S. They lack financial resources, and oftentimes job skills. They lack cultural capital and a support network. But they can control several things. They can control where they choose to settle, and move to areas with more opportunity. They can control what they choose to spend money on, and not let anything out the door that isn't absolutely essential for survival. They can control what they do with their time, and allocate that to building new skills and pursuing new opportunities. If they don't do all of those things, they will fall behind, through the cracks, because that's how life is for poor non-citizens in America. It's usually worse for poor non-citizens in the countries they came from, too. Being able to think systemically, act collectively, and be free from any sort of reprisal or consequence is itself a form of privilege. I thought that chmod600's comment acknowledged reality more than yours did, because not everybody has that privilege. And if you're one of the many people who don't, your best option is to think about your own enlightened self-interest, act according to the options available to you, consider consequences carefully, and not feel too guilty about doing the best that you can.
  - chmod600 6y ago
    Yes, thank you. An important element of my argument is to focus on what's in your control. It's not exclusively about immigrants. In fact, immigrants are less likely to be caught up in notions of fairness because they probably thought to themselves before they came something like "this is going to suck and be unfair, but it will be worth it for my children and grandchildren". So they just make the best of it and compare with the country they came from, not some ideal utopia. The ability to vote is some tiny amount of control, but democracy is a blunt instrument to actually affect your life in a positive way. Policies and their implementation rarely live up to expectations even when enacted, so people waiting for them just get more discouraged. And a lot of policies that might sound good have bad unintended consequences, which is why there are endless arguments. I don't mean to give up on policy, just to recognize that it's not going to be the salvation you're waiting for. Sensibly spend some effort to understand issues and vote for good representatives, but don't hold your breath. Focus on ordinary good advice and encouragement that work regardless of the policies. Most of the goodness in the world is not some well-crafted policy, but ordinary people doing ordinary good things. Be positive and encouraging and give credit when people do those good things, don't be dismissive because you think people will misinterpret the story and craft bad policy out of it. The way we build on success as a society is when people share their success stories. If every time someone shares their success, the response is instantly about how privileged or lucky they are, then our culture is sick. We should listen to and support those stories.
baby 6y ago
> But the constant drumbeat of unfairness and victimhood is a counterproductive tactic in the policymaking process. I don't get it, do you think the system is fair? Do you think it's fine to have so many homeless people in the US because they were given a fair chance? Do you think it's fair that you can go bankrupt due to a medical issue?
- chmod600 6y ago
  No, of course life is not fair. But in the limited time we have, we can either discuss how to make the world more fair, or succeed despite unfairness. Each discussion has its place. We shouldn't derail every success story with comments about how "privileged" someone is for having an aunt.
  - baby 6y ago
    I disagree, because people often focus on success story to argue that we don’t need to improve the situation, the market will figure out itself, and that’s what we’re seeing at play.
    - chmod600 6y ago
      The opposite problem can also happen, where people focus on unfairness instead of taking advantage of the opportunities that they have. That probably causes more actual harm. It depends on the situation, of course. Slavery was so oppressive that it needed to be abolished before any other progress could happen. But that's just not the situation today -- lots of progress can happen without policy changes. I know that policy makers (or politically-obsessed people) like to believe that policy is everything, but it's really not. Policy is important but it's just one piece of a complex social system.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
screye 6y ago
> When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do (which is not always wise) rather than just what they should do. > But when actually struggling (or perhaps even when comfortable), you should forget about policy and fairness and just make the best decisions you can and keep trying to do the right thing, and that gives you or your children or grandchildren the best chance to make it to a comfortable place. This exact dichotomy comes up when I give advice. I have started calling it 'advice for persons' vs 'advice for peoples' (the grammatical peculiarity is on purpose). Both are often completely different. OP's advice is great for persons. It doesn't work for policy making which is decidedly about peoples. But, I don't think that was its intention to begin with.
polished85 6y ago
Thank you for this response. As a first generation immigrant from a third world country, I don't understand this phenomenon of lightly chastising anyone who doesn't attribute their success to privilege, as if afraid someone might be inspired and succeed in something. I suppose its all a matter of perspective. If you haven't experienced poverty in the third world, its easy to whine about privilege and inequality in the USA. If you have experienced it, then you already know life is not fair and there is always someone better off than you.
- alienthrowaway 6y ago
  I'm an immmigrant from a 3rd world country as well - I understand the phenomenon perfectly - it's not about "chastising anyone who doesn't attribute their success to privilege" - it's just pointing out the survivorship bias that's inherent in "If I made it through hard work, anyone can, if they just work hard". Implicit in that statement is that those who do not make it are lazy - this is just not true, but it also co-opts the "Just-world" fallacy. I am doing better than the average American, in large part, because I'm not burdened by the things that hinder the average American (hyper-infation is one way of easily getting rid of your student loan, but the other aspects of your life will be terrible - I do not recommend it) > If you haven't experienced poverty in the third world, its easy to whine about privilege and inequality in the USA. If you have experienced it, then you already know life is not fair and there is always someone better off than you. Shouldn't it be a point of pride - that the USA has less inequality than third world countries. Americans should absolutely "whine" about it, and avoid moving closer to third-world standards. That should be taken as well as saying "If you haven't been detained for months without trial in the freezing gulags, it's easy to whine about mass surveillance and unlawful arrests in the USA".

Gravityloss 6y ago

Seems high crime rate decreases the efficiency and well being of societies a lot. The person can't live in a dense area and must have a car, to avoid other people since they are potentially dangerous. Also their workplace is in a dangerous area. So a large portion of their money goes to transportation and housing. What if they were just as poor but the crime rate in general was just lower? They could live in dense housing and use public transport all day, as could the spouse and the kids. To an outsider, this seems like a really big factor.

estaseuropano 6y ago

How about a reality hat: the world does not offer everyone equal chances. You live in a country surrounded by fences and border patrol exactly to keep those that were less lucky from trying to get some of that luck. Even when born in the country, there are better and worse schools, better and worse social infrastructure, a billion different glass ceilings according to color, gender, age, accent or faith. Your comment perpetuates the eternal lie that everyone can rise to the top, but we all know that some have a 50% chance and others a 0.0005% chance to 'make it'. It's absurd to blame the kid with a bad school and no breakfast for not living up to the highest moral standards and take all the right decisions when they have probably barely to no good advice, guidance or role models. Its easy to judge, but try to empathise. That's not a policy hat, it's acknowledging reality.

nostrademons 6y ago
I saw nothing of the sort in chmod600's comment. They even led with "When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do." Policymakers in Washington and poor immigrants on the streets need different advice, because they control different things. If you are President or Congressperson in the U.S.A, then by all means: let's have a more humane immigration system, and universal health care, and a social safety net. But if you're a poor immigrant in this country, none of that policy is up to you. Non-citizens don't get to vote; Congresspeople do not listen to them. They risk being deported for the slightest infraction. They often require their employer to sponsor their continued stay in the U.S. They lack financial resources, and oftentimes job skills. They lack cultural capital and a support network. But they can control several things. They can control where they choose to settle, and move to areas with more opportunity. They can control what they choose to spend money on, and not let anything out the door that isn't absolutely essential for survival. They can control what they do with their time, and allocate that to building new skills and pursuing new opportunities. If they don't do all of those things, they will fall behind, through the cracks, because that's how life is for poor non-citizens in America. It's usually worse for poor non-citizens in the countries they came from, too. Being able to think systemically, act collectively, and be free from any sort of reprisal or consequence is itself a form of privilege. I thought that chmod600's comment acknowledged reality more than yours did, because not everybody has that privilege. And if you're one of the many people who don't, your best option is to think about your own enlightened self-interest, act according to the options available to you, consider consequences carefully, and not feel too guilty about doing the best that you can.
- chmod600 6y ago
  Yes, thank you. An important element of my argument is to focus on what's in your control. It's not exclusively about immigrants. In fact, immigrants are less likely to be caught up in notions of fairness because they probably thought to themselves before they came something like "this is going to suck and be unfair, but it will be worth it for my children and grandchildren". So they just make the best of it and compare with the country they came from, not some ideal utopia. The ability to vote is some tiny amount of control, but democracy is a blunt instrument to actually affect your life in a positive way. Policies and their implementation rarely live up to expectations even when enacted, so people waiting for them just get more discouraged. And a lot of policies that might sound good have bad unintended consequences, which is why there are endless arguments. I don't mean to give up on policy, just to recognize that it's not going to be the salvation you're waiting for. Sensibly spend some effort to understand issues and vote for good representatives, but don't hold your breath. Focus on ordinary good advice and encouragement that work regardless of the policies. Most of the goodness in the world is not some well-crafted policy, but ordinary people doing ordinary good things. Be positive and encouraging and give credit when people do those good things, don't be dismissive because you think people will misinterpret the story and craft bad policy out of it. The way we build on success as a society is when people share their success stories. If every time someone shares their success, the response is instantly about how privileged or lucky they are, then our culture is sick. We should listen to and support those stories.

baby 6y ago

> But the constant drumbeat of unfairness and victimhood is a counterproductive tactic in the policymaking process. I don't get it, do you think the system is fair? Do you think it's fine to have so many homeless people in the US because they were given a fair chance? Do you think it's fair that you can go bankrupt due to a medical issue?

chmod600 6y ago
No, of course life is not fair. But in the limited time we have, we can either discuss how to make the world more fair, or succeed despite unfairness. Each discussion has its place. We shouldn't derail every success story with comments about how "privileged" someone is for having an aunt.
- baby 6y ago
  I disagree, because people often focus on success story to argue that we don’t need to improve the situation, the market will figure out itself, and that’s what we’re seeing at play.
  - chmod600 6y ago
    The opposite problem can also happen, where people focus on unfairness instead of taking advantage of the opportunities that they have. That probably causes more actual harm. It depends on the situation, of course. Slavery was so oppressive that it needed to be abolished before any other progress could happen. But that's just not the situation today -- lots of progress can happen without policy changes. I know that policy makers (or politically-obsessed people) like to believe that policy is everything, but it's really not. Policy is important but it's just one piece of a complex social system.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

screye 6y ago

> When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do (which is not always wise) rather than just what they should do. > But when actually struggling (or perhaps even when comfortable), you should forget about policy and fairness and just make the best decisions you can and keep trying to do the right thing, and that gives you or your children or grandchildren the best chance to make it to a comfortable place. This exact dichotomy comes up when I give advice. I have started calling it 'advice for persons' vs 'advice for peoples' (the grammatical peculiarity is on purpose). Both are often completely different. OP's advice is great for persons. It doesn't work for policy making which is decidedly about peoples. But, I don't think that was its intention to begin with.

polished85 6y ago

Thank you for this response. As a first generation immigrant from a third world country, I don't understand this phenomenon of lightly chastising anyone who doesn't attribute their success to privilege, as if afraid someone might be inspired and succeed in something. I suppose its all a matter of perspective. If you haven't experienced poverty in the third world, its easy to whine about privilege and inequality in the USA. If you have experienced it, then you already know life is not fair and there is always someone better off than you.

alienthrowaway 6y ago
I'm an immmigrant from a 3rd world country as well - I understand the phenomenon perfectly - it's not about "chastising anyone who doesn't attribute their success to privilege" - it's just pointing out the survivorship bias that's inherent in "If I made it through hard work, anyone can, if they just work hard". Implicit in that statement is that those who do not make it are lazy - this is just not true, but it also co-opts the "Just-world" fallacy. I am doing better than the average American, in large part, because I'm not burdened by the things that hinder the average American (hyper-infation is one way of easily getting rid of your student loan, but the other aspects of your life will be terrible - I do not recommend it) > If you haven't experienced poverty in the third world, its easy to whine about privilege and inequality in the USA. If you have experienced it, then you already know life is not fair and there is always someone better off than you. Shouldn't it be a point of pride - that the USA has less inequality than third world countries. Americans should absolutely "whine" about it, and avoid moving closer to third-world standards. That should be taken as well as saying "If you haven't been detained for months without trial in the freezing gulags, it's easy to whine about mass surveillance and unlawful arrests in the USA".