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Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequenc

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such absurdity that there are politicians giving internationally televised press conferences about how their speech is being suppressed and they have no power. The only self-restriction is by people that don't have the conviction to stand by their ideas, or actually have not thought through their perspective to adequate level of introspection and evidence that can survive free and open discourse. Instead it's much easier to exclaim victimhood and censorship and not bother examining ideas beyond a gut feeling.

shadowgovt 6y ago
And perhaps, in this era of such free and open access to information, individuals are being held to a higher standard of not speaking from a position of authority without the knowledge that can be gleaned from that free and open access and not doubling-down on their ignorance when it is brought to light for them?
- lostcolony 6y ago
  Or being elected and then turned power broker in a major political party. It's definitely an interesting time to be alive.
- farias0 6y ago
  And who is the judge of what is and isn't true? You seem to imply social network consensus is a safe ruler for what kind of speech should be allowed but to me it sounds absurd.
refenestrator 6y ago
What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.
- solosoyokaze 6y ago
  Leftists get canceled all the time (by liberals). Look at the censoring/smearing of Bernie Sanders and his supporters during the primary. Twitter bans leftist accounts all the time as well. Take a look at every VC in our industry and they espouse staunchly establishment neo-liberal policies. Calling Biden into question (which anyone on the left would do) is risking your career. The focus is often on censoring those on the right (which does happen too), but those on the left may be the most censored.
  - the_only_law 6y ago
    In fairness, leftists get cancelled by leftists. insert joke about leftist infighting here
    - entropicdrifter 6y ago
      Gestures vaguely towards the life and works of Orwell This guy gets it
    - solosoyokaze 6y ago
      No they don't. They get canceled by neo-liberals.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Insert joke along the lines of "every leftist is just a radlib except me"
        solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Leftist actually does have meaning. Neo-liberalism is a right wing ideology built on imperialism and capitalism. To conflate the two is dishonest.
        sudosysgen 6y ago
phendrenad2 6y ago
Would love examples of popularly-disapproved-of speech that is flourishing online, and not banned and cancelled at every juncture.
- robotresearcher 6y ago
  Fox News. They regularly have people on expressing minority views that directly contest facts accepted by the majority of the US and the world.
  - wrycoder 6y ago
    There is a movement, extending even to Congress, to take Fox News off the air, or to have ISPs block it.
    - robotresearcher 6y ago
      There are lots of batshit ideas that get that far. Let's pay attention to help make sure they don't get into law.
      - wrycoder 6y ago
        It’s a clear violation of freedom of the press, but never mind.
        klyrs 6y ago
        It's an idea that hasn't gained traction. Fox News isn't cancelled, and the freedom of the press has not been infriged, even if some folks want that to happen. Fox is so popular as to be undeniably mainstream, but still pushes a persecution narrative that they're on the brink of cancellation. It hasn't happened. There's no bill, no law, no executive order. Perhaps onesuch could violate the freedom of the press, if enforced, but nonesuch exists.
        6y ago
gotoeleven 6y ago
For example, if you think people who have a sex of male and a gender of female shouldn't play in women's sports then really you actually have not thought through your perspective to adequate level of introspection and evidence that can survive free and open discourse. And so you should have your books banned and be subject to abuse and threats. That's just reasonable.
slothtrop 6y ago
Tell that to David Shor, among others - https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/david-shor-cancel-culture-2020-election-theory-polls.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/david-shor-cancel-cu...
- tstrimple 6y ago
  From your article: > Shor is still consulting in Democratic politics, but he is no longer working for a firm that restricts his freedom to publicly opine. This is why claims of "cancel culture" aren't taken seriously. If he was "cancelled", but is still gainfully employed in the field of his choice and expertise what does "cancelled" really mean?
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    Not being fucking fired, for one. Seems like a pretty bad faith sentiment. Not everyone fares as well finding work after cancel-culture has its way.
    - tstrimple 6y ago
      It's always amazing to me that so many proponents of "at will employment" suddenly run into issues with it when they are the ones suffering consequences for their own actions. It's fine when trans folk are fired for simply being trans, but when a someone is fired for a racist tweet then all of our liberties are somehow at stake. People get fired all the time for terrible reasons. People fired for their social media activities aren't special in any way.
- eternalban 6y ago
  2017; https://citizentruth.org/nyu-professor-interview-propaganda-engineering-consent/ https://citizentruth.org/nyu-professor-interview-propaganda-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin_Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin_Miller 2020: "As of September 2020, Miller is under a behavioral review by New York University ...". An 'educational moment' for NYU students and faculty .. >> There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. .. and possibly your GP.
dash2 6y ago
"Dark age of thought" would be excessive (and is maybe a straw man). But there's plenty of people being cancelled: https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  There have been people getting cancelled in very large number for thousands of years. Crucially, nowadays, you can still communicate when cancelled. Perhaps to a smaller audience, but this is a necessity because of how human social interactions work.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > There have been people getting cancelled in very large number for thousands of years. Yeah, and while the right loves to use “lynching” as a metaphor for the public criticisms they get that they also label as “cancel culture”, it's worth noting that when the cancel culture shoe was on the other foot regarding race issues, the lynchings (including of Whites) for expressing the wrong views were, frequently, not at all metaphorical.
  - skrebbel 6y ago
    This is just an awful argument. It's basically "things used to be worse, so you shouldn't say it's still bad".
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      What? That is an awful strawman. The question is whether cancel culture is a new phenomenon, or just a continuation of human social nature. I'd suggest you read the entire thread to get context on the point of contention.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > This is just an awful argument. It's basically "things used to be worse, so you shouldn't say it's still bad". No, the argument is “things used to be more extreme in this precise area, so the argument that the present situation is a new and unique historical threat is false”.
toomim 6y ago
This is very well-put! But how do you reconcile this with people losing or being suspended from their jobs, for instance, for what they say? [1] [2] It's hard to say that these people don't have the conviction to stand by their ideas. They are losing the right to speak in front of others because they are standing by their ideas. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-suspended-saying-chinese-word-sounds-english-slur https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-sus... [2] https://www.bschools.org/blog/ucla-anderson-professor-suspended https://www.bschools.org/blog/ucla-anderson-professor-suspen...
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  >https://poetsandquants.com/2020/09/26/usc-marshall-finds-students-were-sincere-but-prof-did-no-wrong-in-racial-flap/?pq-category=business-school-news https://poetsandquants.com/2020/09/26/usc-marshall-finds-stu... >The university’s Office for Equity, Equal Opportunity and Title IX (EEO-TIX) looked into this matter and concluded that the concerns expressed by students were sincere, but that Professor Patton’s actions did not violate the university’s policy. They have also communicated this to the professor and he allowed me to share their conclusion with you. >To be clear, Professor Patton was never suspended nor did his status at Marshall change. He is currently teaching in Marshall’s EMBA program and he will continue his regular teaching schedule next semester. Seems to me there has been some misinformation in this matter. The professor ended up getting paid holiday if anything.
xenophonB 6y ago
People like you are incredibly dishonest. Yeah, people are just imagining the waves of deplatforming and online censorship, being fired from their jobs for dissenting from the orthodoxy.
LordFast 6y ago
> The only self-restriction is by people that don't have the conviction to stand by their ideas, or actually have not thought through their perspective to adequate level of introspection and evidence that can survive free and open discourse. Instead it's much easier to exclaim victimhood and censorship and not bother examining ideas beyond a gut feeling. The whole point of intellectual exchange and growth is from the idea of freely sharing ideas regardless of how "thought through" they are. How do you ever go about sharpening a knife if you aren't encouraged to bring a dull one to the grinder? Have YOU "thought through" your theory/argument/belief/ideology here?

shadowgovt 6y ago

And perhaps, in this era of such free and open access to information, individuals are being held to a higher standard of not speaking from a position of authority without the knowledge that can be gleaned from that free and open access and not doubling-down on their ignorance when it is brought to light for them?

lostcolony 6y ago
Or being elected and then turned power broker in a major political party. It's definitely an interesting time to be alive.
farias0 6y ago
And who is the judge of what is and isn't true? You seem to imply social network consensus is a safe ruler for what kind of speech should be allowed but to me it sounds absurd.

refenestrator 6y ago

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

solosoyokaze 6y ago
Leftists get canceled all the time (by liberals). Look at the censoring/smearing of Bernie Sanders and his supporters during the primary. Twitter bans leftist accounts all the time as well. Take a look at every VC in our industry and they espouse staunchly establishment neo-liberal policies. Calling Biden into question (which anyone on the left would do) is risking your career. The focus is often on censoring those on the right (which does happen too), but those on the left may be the most censored.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  In fairness, leftists get cancelled by leftists. insert joke about leftist infighting here
  - entropicdrifter 6y ago
    Gestures vaguely towards the life and works of Orwell This guy gets it
  - solosoyokaze 6y ago
    No they don't. They get canceled by neo-liberals.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Insert joke along the lines of "every leftist is just a radlib except me"
      - solosoyokaze 6y ago
        Leftist actually does have meaning. Neo-liberalism is a right wing ideology built on imperialism and capitalism. To conflate the two is dishonest.
        sudosysgen 6y ago

phendrenad2 6y ago

Would love examples of popularly-disapproved-of speech that is flourishing online, and not banned and cancelled at every juncture.

robotresearcher 6y ago
Fox News. They regularly have people on expressing minority views that directly contest facts accepted by the majority of the US and the world.
- wrycoder 6y ago
  There is a movement, extending even to Congress, to take Fox News off the air, or to have ISPs block it.
  - robotresearcher 6y ago
    There are lots of batshit ideas that get that far. Let's pay attention to help make sure they don't get into law.
    - wrycoder 6y ago
      It’s a clear violation of freedom of the press, but never mind.
      - klyrs 6y ago
        It's an idea that hasn't gained traction. Fox News isn't cancelled, and the freedom of the press has not been infriged, even if some folks want that to happen. Fox is so popular as to be undeniably mainstream, but still pushes a persecution narrative that they're on the brink of cancellation. It hasn't happened. There's no bill, no law, no executive order. Perhaps onesuch could violate the freedom of the press, if enforced, but nonesuch exists.
        6y ago

gotoeleven 6y ago

For example, if you think people who have a sex of male and a gender of female shouldn't play in women's sports then really you actually have not thought through your perspective to adequate level of introspection and evidence that can survive free and open discourse. And so you should have your books banned and be subject to abuse and threats. That's just reasonable.

slothtrop 6y ago

Tell that to David Shor, among others - https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/david-shor-cancel-culture-2020-election-theory-polls.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/david-shor-cancel-cu...

tstrimple 6y ago
From your article: > Shor is still consulting in Democratic politics, but he is no longer working for a firm that restricts his freedom to publicly opine. This is why claims of "cancel culture" aren't taken seriously. If he was "cancelled", but is still gainfully employed in the field of his choice and expertise what does "cancelled" really mean?
- slothtrop 6y ago
  Not being fucking fired, for one. Seems like a pretty bad faith sentiment. Not everyone fares as well finding work after cancel-culture has its way.
  - tstrimple 6y ago
    It's always amazing to me that so many proponents of "at will employment" suddenly run into issues with it when they are the ones suffering consequences for their own actions. It's fine when trans folk are fired for simply being trans, but when a someone is fired for a racist tweet then all of our liberties are somehow at stake. People get fired all the time for terrible reasons. People fired for their social media activities aren't special in any way.
eternalban 6y ago
2017; https://citizentruth.org/nyu-professor-interview-propaganda-engineering-consent/ https://citizentruth.org/nyu-professor-interview-propaganda-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin_Miller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin_Miller 2020: "As of September 2020, Miller is under a behavioral review by New York University ...". An 'educational moment' for NYU students and faculty .. >> There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. .. and possibly your GP.

dash2 6y ago

"Dark age of thought" would be excessive (and is maybe a straw man). But there's plenty of people being cancelled: https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/

sudosysgen 6y ago
There have been people getting cancelled in very large number for thousands of years. Crucially, nowadays, you can still communicate when cancelled. Perhaps to a smaller audience, but this is a necessity because of how human social interactions work.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > There have been people getting cancelled in very large number for thousands of years. Yeah, and while the right loves to use “lynching” as a metaphor for the public criticisms they get that they also label as “cancel culture”, it's worth noting that when the cancel culture shoe was on the other foot regarding race issues, the lynchings (including of Whites) for expressing the wrong views were, frequently, not at all metaphorical.
- skrebbel 6y ago
  This is just an awful argument. It's basically "things used to be worse, so you shouldn't say it's still bad".
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    What? That is an awful strawman. The question is whether cancel culture is a new phenomenon, or just a continuation of human social nature. I'd suggest you read the entire thread to get context on the point of contention.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > This is just an awful argument. It's basically "things used to be worse, so you shouldn't say it's still bad". No, the argument is “things used to be more extreme in this precise area, so the argument that the present situation is a new and unique historical threat is false”.

toomim 6y ago

This is very well-put! But how do you reconcile this with people losing or being suspended from their jobs, for instance, for what they say? [1] [2] It's hard to say that these people don't have the conviction to stand by their ideas. They are losing the right to speak in front of others because they are standing by their ideas. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-suspended-saying-chinese-word-sounds-english-slur https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/08/professor-sus... [2] https://www.bschools.org/blog/ucla-anderson-professor-suspended https://www.bschools.org/blog/ucla-anderson-professor-suspen...

sudosysgen 6y ago
>https://poetsandquants.com/2020/09/26/usc-marshall-finds-students-were-sincere-but-prof-did-no-wrong-in-racial-flap/?pq-category=business-school-news https://poetsandquants.com/2020/09/26/usc-marshall-finds-stu... >The university’s Office for Equity, Equal Opportunity and Title IX (EEO-TIX) looked into this matter and concluded that the concerns expressed by students were sincere, but that Professor Patton’s actions did not violate the university’s policy. They have also communicated this to the professor and he allowed me to share their conclusion with you. >To be clear, Professor Patton was never suspended nor did his status at Marshall change. He is currently teaching in Marshall’s EMBA program and he will continue his regular teaching schedule next semester. Seems to me there has been some misinformation in this matter. The professor ended up getting paid holiday if anything.

xenophonB 6y ago

People like you are incredibly dishonest. Yeah, people are just imagining the waves of deplatforming and online censorship, being fired from their jobs for dissenting from the orthodoxy.

LordFast 6y ago

> The only self-restriction is by people that don't have the conviction to stand by their ideas, or actually have not thought through their perspective to adequate level of introspection and evidence that can survive free and open discourse. Instead it's much easier to exclaim victimhood and censorship and not bother examining ideas beyond a gut feeling. The whole point of intellectual exchange and growth is from the idea of freely sharing ideas regardless of how "thought through" they are. How do you ever go about sharpening a knife if you aren't encouraged to bring a dull one to the grinder? Have YOU "thought through" your theory/argument/belief/ideology here?