4 ms·

Here's a counterpoint: in the last 150 years we've seen the enslavement and legally mandated racial segregation of African-Americans, same-sex marriages illegal

Here's a counterpoint: in the last 150 years we've seen the enslavement and legally mandated racial segregation of African-Americans, same-sex marriages illegal until recently, enormous and largely forgot historical support of Hitler and Franco, a mass shooting of a synagogue amid a resurgence in neonazism, and are only celebrating 100 years of womens' right to vote. It's hard, from the outside of the bubble of this generally white and male forum, sometimes to appreciate how badly other people have it. Some people are effectively cancelled all the time and even a small taste of it has people in an uproar here. Perhaps a little empathy on all sides would be beneficial.

edbob 6y ago
This is exactly why we should cherish the standard of moderation and equality that has been achieved, because it is that rare and precious and is so very easily lost. There are significant threats to this both from the left and the right, and they must be carefully guarded against. Cancel Culture hasn't destroyed it yet, but the people driving cancellations most definitely aim to suppress the voices of at least 40% of the country, and add insult to injury by falsely claiming that "only racists/fascists/etc. are canceled". As if Twitter mobs phoning in death threats were composed of good, rational people who can be trusted with the power to decide whether a person deserves to be seen as a human being or as scum.
bart_spoon 6y ago
Even if it were only white males suffering from cancel culture, this wouldn't be an argument that justifies the modern environment. That said, it isn't simply white, straight, upper class males being targeted: * The dutch translator for Amanda Gorman's inaugural poem quit after backlash due to the fact that they are a white, nonbinary individual rather than a "spoken-word artist, young, female and unapologetically Black". This despite the fact that they were specifically chosen by Gorman, herself a black female. [0] * Back in 2018, a black female student at Smith College complained of being discriminated against for "eating while black" because she was asked to leave an area that had been marked as off-limits to everyone. Subsequent investigations revealed the employees involved did nothing wrong and did not target the student. Despite this, the New York Times reported last week that they continue to receive harassment and threats. One woman, a cafeteria worker who suffers from chronic health issues, can't find employment because of it. The ACLU has continued to insist that the employees wronged the student, despite the result of the investigations. [1] * The YA fiction scene is constantly embroiled in controversy, often due to perceived crimes against woke culture. In one notable instance, the author Amelie Wen Zhao, a Chinese-American immigrant, had her upcoming novel cancelled and her career derailed due to the story involving a society in which people could be enslaved on a basis not involving the color of their skin. [2] * A highly praised science fiction short story published in Clarksworld magazine called "I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter", written by a trans author who was repurposing the meme, was pulled (along with all of the author's future submissions) after intense public backlash towards the author by the Twitter woke mob. [3] * Glenn Greenwald, a gay journalist, has been targeted in recent weeks as a "transphobe" for drawing attention to recent study defending a book questioning if young people are being pressured into transitioning too strongly against an ACLU lawyer who was publicly arguing the book should be censored, and for drawing attention to recent research regarding the skyrocketing rates of those who identify as LGBTQ in the youngest generations [4] [5] Plenty of women, people of color, members of the LGBT community, and the poor are being targeted and harmed for not toeing the cultural party line. This cultish group think is dangerous for individuals, and it's dangerous for our society, regardless of who you are. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.htm... [2] https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-the-line-between-criticism-and-cancel-culture https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/17/sci-fi-magazine-pulls-story-by-trans-writer-after-barrage-of-attacks?fbclid=IwAR1cPSjyv9bUyWBkPR0yxrSjxWNx4alqpC3JegNt4j9XQeBpkKB6tHkiee8 https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/17/sci-fi-magazin... [4] https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-ongoing-death-of-free-s... [5] https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1364617687423471621 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1364617687423471621
- vertex-four 6y ago
  Gay men and women being transphobic is... actually fairly common, actually. Being gay does not mean you automatically feel solidarity with trans folk, even if the roots of the gay rights movement involve us. The TERF movement in the U.K. started as a lesbian movement, and the argument that “girls are being forced to be trans” is one of their talking points. Defending the right of someone to write a book about their thinly veiled hatred is one thing; commenting that you think there’s a good point in it and other people should read it is another.
inglor_cz 6y ago
"generally white and male forum" Ok, let us look at your examples and see how "white males" fared in it, right? "same-sex marriages illegal" - white male gays had no exception. "Hitler and Franco" - the first one massacred helluva lot of white males (Czechs, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians etc.). The second one led a civil war against whom? White male Spanish republicans. "mass shooting of a synagogue" - are Jewish people white or not in your book? Because they seem to be considered white whenever affirmative action applies or Israeli-Palestinian conflict is being discussed (ironically so, given that random Israelis and Palestinians are hard to tell apart by color of their skins).

edbob 6y ago

This is exactly why we should cherish the standard of moderation and equality that has been achieved, because it is that rare and precious and is so very easily lost. There are significant threats to this both from the left and the right, and they must be carefully guarded against. Cancel Culture hasn't destroyed it yet, but the people driving cancellations most definitely aim to suppress the voices of at least 40% of the country, and add insult to injury by falsely claiming that "only racists/fascists/etc. are canceled". As if Twitter mobs phoning in death threats were composed of good, rational people who can be trusted with the power to decide whether a person deserves to be seen as a human being or as scum.

bart_spoon 6y ago

Even if it were only white males suffering from cancel culture, this wouldn't be an argument that justifies the modern environment. That said, it isn't simply white, straight, upper class males being targeted: * The dutch translator for Amanda Gorman's inaugural poem quit after backlash due to the fact that they are a white, nonbinary individual rather than a "spoken-word artist, young, female and unapologetically Black". This despite the fact that they were specifically chosen by Gorman, herself a black female. [0] * Back in 2018, a black female student at Smith College complained of being discriminated against for "eating while black" because she was asked to leave an area that had been marked as off-limits to everyone. Subsequent investigations revealed the employees involved did nothing wrong and did not target the student. Despite this, the New York Times reported last week that they continue to receive harassment and threats. One woman, a cafeteria worker who suffers from chronic health issues, can't find employment because of it. The ACLU has continued to insist that the employees wronged the student, despite the result of the investigations. [1] * The YA fiction scene is constantly embroiled in controversy, often due to perceived crimes against woke culture. In one notable instance, the author Amelie Wen Zhao, a Chinese-American immigrant, had her upcoming novel cancelled and her career derailed due to the story involving a society in which people could be enslaved on a basis not involving the color of their skin. [2] * A highly praised science fiction short story published in Clarksworld magazine called "I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter", written by a trans author who was repurposing the meme, was pulled (along with all of the author's future submissions) after intense public backlash towards the author by the Twitter woke mob. [3] * Glenn Greenwald, a gay journalist, has been targeted in recent weeks as a "transphobe" for drawing attention to recent study defending a book questioning if young people are being pressured into transitioning too strongly against an ACLU lawyer who was publicly arguing the book should be censored, and for drawing attention to recent research regarding the skyrocketing rates of those who identify as LGBTQ in the youngest generations [4] [5] Plenty of women, people of color, members of the LGBT community, and the poor are being targeted and harmed for not toeing the cultural party line. This cultish group think is dangerous for individuals, and it's dangerous for our society, regardless of who you are. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.htm... [2] https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-the-line-between-criticism-and-cancel-culture https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/in-ya-where-is-... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/17/sci-fi-magazine-pulls-story-by-trans-writer-after-barrage-of-attacks?fbclid=IwAR1cPSjyv9bUyWBkPR0yxrSjxWNx4alqpC3JegNt4j9XQeBpkKB6tHkiee8 https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/17/sci-fi-magazin... [4] https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-ongoing-death-of-free-s... [5] https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1364617687423471621 https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1364617687423471621

vertex-four 6y ago
Gay men and women being transphobic is... actually fairly common, actually. Being gay does not mean you automatically feel solidarity with trans folk, even if the roots of the gay rights movement involve us. The TERF movement in the U.K. started as a lesbian movement, and the argument that “girls are being forced to be trans” is one of their talking points. Defending the right of someone to write a book about their thinly veiled hatred is one thing; commenting that you think there’s a good point in it and other people should read it is another.

inglor_cz 6y ago

"generally white and male forum" Ok, let us look at your examples and see how "white males" fared in it, right? "same-sex marriages illegal" - white male gays had no exception. "Hitler and Franco" - the first one massacred helluva lot of white males (Czechs, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians etc.). The second one led a civil war against whom? White male Spanish republicans. "mass shooting of a synagogue" - are Jewish people white or not in your book? Because they seem to be considered white whenever affirmative action applies or Israeli-Palestinian conflict is being discussed (ironically so, given that random Israelis and Palestinians are hard to tell apart by color of their skins).