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We don't require candidates to be passionate about programming but we do want them to be passionate about something. We don't care if that something is gardenin

We don't require candidates to be passionate about programming but we do want them to be passionate about something. We don't care if that something is gardening, playing in a heavy metal band, or code. I would rather work alongside someone who has some enthusiasm for something in life than someone who has none. In fact it would make me not want to go to work if no one there has any excitement for anything. Hiring decisions are not purely company-profit driven, how much people enjoy their work environment directly affects burnout, work/life satisfaction, and desire to improve/grow.

_0o6v 6y ago
Why on earth would a passion for gardening make them any more of a better hire for you? You pay them (presumably) in return for their time and skills as a programmer, not a gardener. Would I get a job as a professional gardener with zero experience but a passion for programming?
- momothereal 6y ago
  You're missing the point entirely: it's better to hire someone who shows some creativity, can follow through with their goals, and can bring new perspectives on top of their work-related experience, instead of a robot with the same exact work-related experience. Being passionate about something is a good indicator for these qualities.
  - _0o6v 6y ago
    Is it, really? Or is it more often than not just a facade for the same old hiring practices. Faced with someone who "loves gardening!!" vs. someone who has a ton of OSS contributions, who are they really going to hire?
    - momothereal 6y ago
      I think it depends on how the interview goes? If the candidate is "passionate" about watering their solo house plant, maybe not as much. On the other hand, I can't imagine someone with tons of OSS contributions who _isn't_ passionate about programming at some level.
    - nikisweeting 6y ago
      The person with OSS contributions has a lower bar to prove their competency for job-related tasks, because they happen to already have a body of work to show that competence. However if we get a more competent candidate who likes gardening more than programming, we'll absolutely choose them over the pure passion person because they'll do the job better. They just have to show that competence in some other way, e.g. via the interviews or past job accomplishments.
    - olnluis 6y ago
      It would be reasonable to think that the candidate with a ton of OSS contributions has a passion for something, which luckily for the company it happens to be coding.
- bluefirebrand 6y ago
  It's just a way to filter out people that "don't fit in" or whatever. Cultural fit type stuff.
- nikisweeting 6y ago
  Because hiring decisions are not only made to increase a company's revenue, you also want to not hate showing up to work everyday. Because excitement in any form is contagious, and I'd rather work alongside someone who is excited about something than someone who is not. As an employee, I will burn out much faster in an environment where no one wants to be there than an environment where people share their curiosities and passions, even if they are not immediately work related.
- granshaw 6y ago
  It’s a very American thing IME. There’s a big emphasis on having interesting fulfilling lives here and people openly probe about it more too. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different.
dreen 6y ago
I think that's fine as long as you don't require them to actually demonstrate that with something they invested time in. It's sad but many people are in a position they cannot pursue their passions. Though they probably can talk about it in some detail.
- nikisweeting 6y ago
  Absolutely, the only test is "can you talk my ear off about something you care about", not "can you demonstrate you've sunk time and money into a thing". Those are often correlated but they don't have to be.
wwww4all 6y ago
As senior engineer, I always advise people to avoid companies that put any emphasis on intangible things like passion as hiring criteria. It’s highly subjective and leads to in group thinking and monoculture dependencies. Passion is usually fleeting. My advice is to demonstrate perseverance. Show the drive for professional solutions, analytics on metrics to discern what works and doesn’t work.
- nikisweeting 6y ago
  We don't necessarily hire for passion, but what we do care about is "will we enjoy working alongside this person for 6+ hours a day for years". I would rather work alongside someone who comes to work gushing about a new succulent they potted over the weekend, and who is ready to work to earn more to buy more plants but doesn't necessarily love coding, than someone who shows up grumpy and has no enthusiasm of any kind to share. Certainly hiring a only "passionate 10x coders" will ruin your business because they'll spend the whole time reimplementing databases for fun instead of doing the work. But excitement of any kind is contagious, and it helps everyone's mental health to work in an environment where there is excitement/curiosity of some kind, even (especially) non-work-related.
  - wwww4all 6y ago
    It’s your company and you’ll learn the same lessons every other companies have learned in the past. People are usually passionate about fun, interesting things. People are not passionate about boring, tedious things. Customers pay big bucks to have people do the boring, tedious things correctly. Who is going to sanitize inputs to prevent basic sql injection hacks? Who is going to write basic unit tests to get at least 50% code coverage? Who is going to code review for basic functionality and quality standards? Most companies ignore all the tech debt, and hope they exit before the debt comes due. Most companies fail. Good luck.
    - nikisweeting 6y ago
      Oh I'd say in that regard we've already failed, we're not really massively profitable and not planning on getting any kind of "hockey stick" or exit. We're a slow growth services/consulting company that cares more about working on interesting fun stuff with our friends than pure profit. I love doing the tedious devopsy/documentation/maintenance stuff that other people don't enjoy, so a lot of that stuff falls on my shoulders or gets spread around evenly so the people who don't enjoy it aren't stuck with it full-time. When I leave, that stuff will get passed on to others, but we've built a culture around caring about tech debt and long-term health, and splitting that workload between interesting fun things and not-so-fun things, so I have faith that it won't collapse.

_0o6v 6y ago

Why on earth would a passion for gardening make them any more of a better hire for you? You pay them (presumably) in return for their time and skills as a programmer, not a gardener. Would I get a job as a professional gardener with zero experience but a passion for programming?

momothereal 6y ago
You're missing the point entirely: it's better to hire someone who shows some creativity, can follow through with their goals, and can bring new perspectives on top of their work-related experience, instead of a robot with the same exact work-related experience. Being passionate about something is a good indicator for these qualities.
- _0o6v 6y ago
  Is it, really? Or is it more often than not just a facade for the same old hiring practices. Faced with someone who "loves gardening!!" vs. someone who has a ton of OSS contributions, who are they really going to hire?
  - momothereal 6y ago
    I think it depends on how the interview goes? If the candidate is "passionate" about watering their solo house plant, maybe not as much. On the other hand, I can't imagine someone with tons of OSS contributions who _isn't_ passionate about programming at some level.
  - nikisweeting 6y ago
    The person with OSS contributions has a lower bar to prove their competency for job-related tasks, because they happen to already have a body of work to show that competence. However if we get a more competent candidate who likes gardening more than programming, we'll absolutely choose them over the pure passion person because they'll do the job better. They just have to show that competence in some other way, e.g. via the interviews or past job accomplishments.
  - olnluis 6y ago
    It would be reasonable to think that the candidate with a ton of OSS contributions has a passion for something, which luckily for the company it happens to be coding.
bluefirebrand 6y ago
It's just a way to filter out people that "don't fit in" or whatever. Cultural fit type stuff.
nikisweeting 6y ago
Because hiring decisions are not only made to increase a company's revenue, you also want to not hate showing up to work everyday. Because excitement in any form is contagious, and I'd rather work alongside someone who is excited about something than someone who is not. As an employee, I will burn out much faster in an environment where no one wants to be there than an environment where people share their curiosities and passions, even if they are not immediately work related.
granshaw 6y ago
It’s a very American thing IME. There’s a big emphasis on having interesting fulfilling lives here and people openly probe about it more too. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different.

dreen 6y ago

I think that's fine as long as you don't require them to actually demonstrate that with something they invested time in. It's sad but many people are in a position they cannot pursue their passions. Though they probably can talk about it in some detail.

nikisweeting 6y ago
Absolutely, the only test is "can you talk my ear off about something you care about", not "can you demonstrate you've sunk time and money into a thing". Those are often correlated but they don't have to be.

wwww4all 6y ago

As senior engineer, I always advise people to avoid companies that put any emphasis on intangible things like passion as hiring criteria. It’s highly subjective and leads to in group thinking and monoculture dependencies. Passion is usually fleeting. My advice is to demonstrate perseverance. Show the drive for professional solutions, analytics on metrics to discern what works and doesn’t work.

nikisweeting 6y ago
We don't necessarily hire for passion, but what we do care about is "will we enjoy working alongside this person for 6+ hours a day for years". I would rather work alongside someone who comes to work gushing about a new succulent they potted over the weekend, and who is ready to work to earn more to buy more plants but doesn't necessarily love coding, than someone who shows up grumpy and has no enthusiasm of any kind to share. Certainly hiring a only "passionate 10x coders" will ruin your business because they'll spend the whole time reimplementing databases for fun instead of doing the work. But excitement of any kind is contagious, and it helps everyone's mental health to work in an environment where there is excitement/curiosity of some kind, even (especially) non-work-related.
- wwww4all 6y ago
  It’s your company and you’ll learn the same lessons every other companies have learned in the past. People are usually passionate about fun, interesting things. People are not passionate about boring, tedious things. Customers pay big bucks to have people do the boring, tedious things correctly. Who is going to sanitize inputs to prevent basic sql injection hacks? Who is going to write basic unit tests to get at least 50% code coverage? Who is going to code review for basic functionality and quality standards? Most companies ignore all the tech debt, and hope they exit before the debt comes due. Most companies fail. Good luck.
  - nikisweeting 6y ago
    Oh I'd say in that regard we've already failed, we're not really massively profitable and not planning on getting any kind of "hockey stick" or exit. We're a slow growth services/consulting company that cares more about working on interesting fun stuff with our friends than pure profit. I love doing the tedious devopsy/documentation/maintenance stuff that other people don't enjoy, so a lot of that stuff falls on my shoulders or gets spread around evenly so the people who don't enjoy it aren't stuck with it full-time. When I leave, that stuff will get passed on to others, but we've built a culture around caring about tech debt and long-term health, and splitting that workload between interesting fun things and not-so-fun things, so I have faith that it won't collapse.