4 ms·

Essentially all of the "mobility" metrics are case studies in the 3 types of lying- "lies, damned lies and statistics" In many Northern/Western European countr

by floor2 6y ago

Essentially all of the "mobility" metrics are case studies in the 3 types of lying- "lies, damned lies and statistics" In many Northern/Western European countries, wages are very compressed around the median, such that relatively small changes in income can move a person from one quintile to another. Unsurprisingly, these countries will show lots of mobility- in the US you might need to go from parents at $30k to child making $100k to have the same "mobility" as a Scandinavian family going from $40k to $50k between generations.

david927 6y ago
You dislike the numbers so you literally make up numbers in response? It doesn't work that way. Calling it lies because European counties have a middle class is crazy. Having a middle-class is an incredibly important part of mobility. Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. A huge portion of America's citizens are living paycheck-to-paycheck and have no way out. Have you been to Scandinavia? No homeless. No destitute poverty. No one is defecating on the streets like they do in San Francisco. There's a big problem here and hand-waving it away because you don't want to look at it won't help.
- fogihujy 6y ago
  Alas, homelessness and povery exist in the Nordic countries as well. It's much less common herr than in many other places, but there is definitely a lot of people with large debts, living paycheck to paycheck.
  - david927 6y ago
    Sure. I didn't mean that as in actually zero cases. I mean, go to Portland and then go to Oslo. Go to Philly and then go to Copenhagen. The difference is night-and-day.
    - fogihujy 6y ago
      Definitely, but in the larger scale of things, Copenhagen is filled to the brink with overvalued buildings financed with zero-interest loans. If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street ("the street" being used as a metaphor for a situation where there's no stable living situation). Denmark and Sweden have managed to keep their housing bubbles intact for now, but I suspect the financial troubles brought on by the pandemic might change the situation quite radically the coming 6 months if the EU don't manage to secure vaccine availability and get the ball rolling.
      - david927 6y ago
        > If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street Yeah, I hear you. That's the whole world, though. Here in the US, too, interest rates are prohibited from rising or it's Armageddon.
- jandrewrogers 6y ago
  > Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. That is an obviously false assertion. Per the US BLS, the median household has ~$1,000 leftover each month after all ordinary expenses. It takes quite a bit of credulity to assert that households making >$100,000 per year have no money saved up in the US on average. You are almost certainly citing one of the long discredited sources that define “savings” as “money in a savings account”. Savings accounts are an anachronism, most people don’t even have one because they don’t serve a purpose. The only people that make this claim anymore are pushing an agenda, that it is blatantly misleading has been pointed out for many years yet people still insist and repeating it.
  - david927 6y ago
    > obviously false assertion Maybe you need to spend time outside of your gated community and get your data from multiple sources. The BLS numbers are not handed down from God and can be wrong. This survey below, for example, (which they do every year and remains consistent) shows that around 60% of Americans would not be able to pay an unexpected $1,000 expense: https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/financial-security-january-2019 https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/financial-security-...
    - jandrewrogers 6y ago
      You decide to cite an advertisement for savings accounts that defines "savings" as having a savings account? Americans don't have savings accounts because they serve no purpose, it doesn't imply they can't pay an emergency expense. Furthermore, the survey asked how they would pay, not if they could pay. That's like saying most Americans don't have a means of transportation because you've defined "means of transportation" as "owns a horse". If you actually look at US Federal Reserve data, instead of advertisements, the percentage of Americans without the means to pay an unexpected expense is around 13%.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - 6y ago

by floor2 6y ago

david927 6y ago

You dislike the numbers so you literally make up numbers in response? It doesn't work that way. Calling it lies because European counties have a middle class is crazy. Having a middle-class is an incredibly important part of mobility. Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. A huge portion of America's citizens are living paycheck-to-paycheck and have no way out. Have you been to Scandinavia? No homeless. No destitute poverty. No one is defecating on the streets like they do in San Francisco. There's a big problem here and hand-waving it away because you don't want to look at it won't help.

fogihujy 6y ago
Alas, homelessness and povery exist in the Nordic countries as well. It's much less common herr than in many other places, but there is definitely a lot of people with large debts, living paycheck to paycheck.
- david927 6y ago
  Sure. I didn't mean that as in actually zero cases. I mean, go to Portland and then go to Oslo. Go to Philly and then go to Copenhagen. The difference is night-and-day.
  - fogihujy 6y ago
    Definitely, but in the larger scale of things, Copenhagen is filled to the brink with overvalued buildings financed with zero-interest loans. If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street ("the street" being used as a metaphor for a situation where there's no stable living situation). Denmark and Sweden have managed to keep their housing bubbles intact for now, but I suspect the financial troubles brought on by the pandemic might change the situation quite radically the coming 6 months if the EU don't manage to secure vaccine availability and get the ball rolling.
    - david927 6y ago
      > If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street Yeah, I hear you. That's the whole world, though. Here in the US, too, interest rates are prohibited from rising or it's Armageddon.
jandrewrogers 6y ago
> Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. That is an obviously false assertion. Per the US BLS, the median household has ~$1,000 leftover each month after all ordinary expenses. It takes quite a bit of credulity to assert that households making >$100,000 per year have no money saved up in the US on average. You are almost certainly citing one of the long discredited sources that define “savings” as “money in a savings account”. Savings accounts are an anachronism, most people don’t even have one because they don’t serve a purpose. The only people that make this claim anymore are pushing an agenda, that it is blatantly misleading has been pointed out for many years yet people still insist and repeating it.
- david927 6y ago
  > obviously false assertion Maybe you need to spend time outside of your gated community and get your data from multiple sources. The BLS numbers are not handed down from God and can be wrong. This survey below, for example, (which they do every year and remains consistent) shows that around 60% of Americans would not be able to pay an unexpected $1,000 expense: https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/financial-security-january-2019 https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/financial-security-...
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    You decide to cite an advertisement for savings accounts that defines "savings" as having a savings account? Americans don't have savings accounts because they serve no purpose, it doesn't imply they can't pay an emergency expense. Furthermore, the survey asked how they would pay, not if they could pay. That's like saying most Americans don't have a means of transportation because you've defined "means of transportation" as "owns a horse". If you actually look at US Federal Reserve data, instead of advertisements, the percentage of Americans without the means to pay an unexpected expense is around 13%.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 6y ago