6 ms·

America is 27th in the Global Social Mobility Index. The propaganda that you can "work hard and succeed" is no longer working, especially for the youngest gene

America is 27th in the Global Social Mobility Index. The propaganda that you can "work hard and succeed" is no longer working, especially for the youngest generations. They're seeing that America is becoming a third-world nation with pockets of wealth. And they realize that if we don't start caring about inequality and mobility, it will just get worse.

will4274 6y ago
27th of 100+ countries? So like, the top 25%?
- david927 6y ago
  Almost at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Trying to spin it as a "near-win" is disingenuous. America is closer to Kazakhstan than it is to Germany or France.
  - will4274 6y ago
    I mean, GP said America was becoming a third world country. If you look at the list, it's pretty clear that second world (former Soviet) countries generally have higher social mobility than third world countries but still lesser than the United States. I wasn't trying to spin a near win - just objecting to hyperbole.
    - david927 6y ago
      I don't think "second world" is really used and saying "former soviet" nations means nothing. In the 30 years since that change, nations have developed so differently that it doesn't add much to group them together. That said, I see your point. Please note that I said America is "becoming" a third world country and did not say "already is".
      - perl4ever 6y ago
        >I don't think "second world" is really used The (or a) point, I think, of bringing up "second world" is that if you use the term "third world", one is essentially importing that context. If you don't like "second world" you shouldn't use "third world". In denigrating the US, "developing world/country" is not going to work because it isn't pejorative enough. But "third world" is outdated.
floor2 6y ago
Essentially all of the "mobility" metrics are case studies in the 3 types of lying- "lies, damned lies and statistics" In many Northern/Western European countries, wages are very compressed around the median, such that relatively small changes in income can move a person from one quintile to another. Unsurprisingly, these countries will show lots of mobility- in the US you might need to go from parents at $30k to child making $100k to have the same "mobility" as a Scandinavian family going from $40k to $50k between generations.
- david927 6y ago
  You dislike the numbers so you literally make up numbers in response? It doesn't work that way. Calling it lies because European counties have a middle class is crazy. Having a middle-class is an incredibly important part of mobility. Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. A huge portion of America's citizens are living paycheck-to-paycheck and have no way out. Have you been to Scandinavia? No homeless. No destitute poverty. No one is defecating on the streets like they do in San Francisco. There's a big problem here and hand-waving it away because you don't want to look at it won't help.
  - fogihujy 6y ago
    Alas, homelessness and povery exist in the Nordic countries as well. It's much less common herr than in many other places, but there is definitely a lot of people with large debts, living paycheck to paycheck.
    - david927 6y ago
      Sure. I didn't mean that as in actually zero cases. I mean, go to Portland and then go to Oslo. Go to Philly and then go to Copenhagen. The difference is night-and-day.
      - fogihujy 6y ago
        Definitely, but in the larger scale of things, Copenhagen is filled to the brink with overvalued buildings financed with zero-interest loans. If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street ("the street" being used as a metaphor for a situation where there's no stable living situation). Denmark and Sweden have managed to keep their housing bubbles intact for now, but I suspect the financial troubles brought on by the pandemic might change the situation quite radically the coming 6 months if the EU don't manage to secure vaccine availability and get the ball rolling.
dawg- 6y ago
Is there something wrong with Lithuania and Portugal that it is so bad to be next to them in some world ranking? I get tired of the thinking that if the USA is not "#1 best in the entire history of the world" in these global rankings then we're some kind of abysmal losers.
- david927 6y ago
  Sorry! No disrespect intended. They both just have a lower GDP and one might think that America with its higher stated GDP could do better. I apologize and have removed it.
tharne 6y ago
You're using a rank of 27th out of almost 200 countries to make the claim that America is a third world country? We're in the top tranche in terms of socio-economic mobility and you're trying to spin that as loss? Sure we could do better, but providing better mobility than 80-90% of the world is not exactly horrible.
- david927 6y ago
  It's out of 82 here and it's nearly at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Also I said it's becoming a third world country.

will4274 6y ago

27th of 100+ countries? So like, the top 25%?

david927 6y ago
Almost at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Trying to spin it as a "near-win" is disingenuous. America is closer to Kazakhstan than it is to Germany or France.
- will4274 6y ago
  I mean, GP said America was becoming a third world country. If you look at the list, it's pretty clear that second world (former Soviet) countries generally have higher social mobility than third world countries but still lesser than the United States. I wasn't trying to spin a near win - just objecting to hyperbole.
  - david927 6y ago
    I don't think "second world" is really used and saying "former soviet" nations means nothing. In the 30 years since that change, nations have developed so differently that it doesn't add much to group them together. That said, I see your point. Please note that I said America is "becoming" a third world country and did not say "already is".
    - perl4ever 6y ago
      >I don't think "second world" is really used The (or a) point, I think, of bringing up "second world" is that if you use the term "third world", one is essentially importing that context. If you don't like "second world" you shouldn't use "third world". In denigrating the US, "developing world/country" is not going to work because it isn't pejorative enough. But "third world" is outdated.

floor2 6y ago

Essentially all of the "mobility" metrics are case studies in the 3 types of lying- "lies, damned lies and statistics" In many Northern/Western European countries, wages are very compressed around the median, such that relatively small changes in income can move a person from one quintile to another. Unsurprisingly, these countries will show lots of mobility- in the US you might need to go from parents at $30k to child making $100k to have the same "mobility" as a Scandinavian family going from $40k to $50k between generations.

david927 6y ago
You dislike the numbers so you literally make up numbers in response? It doesn't work that way. Calling it lies because European counties have a middle class is crazy. Having a middle-class is an incredibly important part of mobility. Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. A huge portion of America's citizens are living paycheck-to-paycheck and have no way out. Have you been to Scandinavia? No homeless. No destitute poverty. No one is defecating on the streets like they do in San Francisco. There's a big problem here and hand-waving it away because you don't want to look at it won't help.
- fogihujy 6y ago
  Alas, homelessness and povery exist in the Nordic countries as well. It's much less common herr than in many other places, but there is definitely a lot of people with large debts, living paycheck to paycheck.
  - david927 6y ago
    Sure. I didn't mean that as in actually zero cases. I mean, go to Portland and then go to Oslo. Go to Philly and then go to Copenhagen. The difference is night-and-day.
    - fogihujy 6y ago
      Definitely, but in the larger scale of things, Copenhagen is filled to the brink with overvalued buildings financed with zero-interest loans. If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street ("the street" being used as a metaphor for a situation where there's no stable living situation). Denmark and Sweden have managed to keep their housing bubbles intact for now, but I suspect the financial troubles brought on by the pandemic might change the situation quite radically the coming 6 months if the EU don't manage to secure vaccine availability and get the ball rolling.

dawg- 6y ago

Is there something wrong with Lithuania and Portugal that it is so bad to be next to them in some world ranking? I get tired of the thinking that if the USA is not "#1 best in the entire history of the world" in these global rankings then we're some kind of abysmal losers.

david927 6y ago
Sorry! No disrespect intended. They both just have a lower GDP and one might think that America with its higher stated GDP could do better. I apologize and have removed it.

tharne 6y ago

You're using a rank of 27th out of almost 200 countries to make the claim that America is a third world country? We're in the top tranche in terms of socio-economic mobility and you're trying to spin that as loss? Sure we could do better, but providing better mobility than 80-90% of the world is not exactly horrible.

david927 6y ago
It's out of 82 here and it's nearly at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Also I said it's becoming a third world country.