7 ms·

EDIT 2: As a few folks have pointed out, it is hard to tell based on the article if the warrenty was denied to the entire car, or just the lead acid battery. S

by kop316 6y ago

EDIT 2: As a few folks have pointed out, it is hard to tell based on the article if the warrenty was denied to the entire car, or just the lead acid battery. So I misread the article at first. This is not a person trying to hook up a power source to the primary Lithium Battery, it is someone hooking up an inverter to a 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has. While I would agree that hooking up an inverter to the primary battery is one thing, voiding the warrenty for hooking up an inverter to the lead acid battery is entirely different, and I would be furious if a dealer tried to void a warrenty on my car based on a $100 car battery. I actually wonder if what they are doing is illegal under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. What likely happened is that the inverter deeply discharged the lead acid battery, tripping the flag in the car. As an FYI, what you can do if you do this occurs is bring it to an auto parts store, they can inspect your battery to tell you if it is still good, (this is usually a free service), recharge your battery (I have often got it for free, but sometimes it's like a 5$ fee), and if the battery isn't old, that will fix it. EDIT: if you want to read the act, it is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130317083941/http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C50.txt https://web.archive.org/web/20130317083941/http://uscode.hou... But in reading here: https://apb-law.com/understanding-magnuson-moss-act-relates-aftermarket-car-parts/ https://apb-law.com/understanding-magnuson-moss-act-relates-... I actually think what Tesla is doing is in fact illegal.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has Why do Teslas still have these wet batteries, do you know? Also, does the Tesla not have a standard wall socket in it? Why would you need to use an inverter?
- crowbahr 6y ago
  Because they have a prewarm system and 12v lights etc. It helps conserve your actual battery and works well. They have a separate 12v system from their 400v+ system that they use to run the motor.
  - thisisnico 6y ago
    I would also assume that most of the cars electronics that aren't propulsion based are manufactured and designed by parts suppliers that base their experience and design around the 12v batteries. Giving them a similar power supply means not having to redesign the cars electronics specifically for Tesla.
- kop316 6y ago
  I don't own a Tesla, so I don't know. I have dealt with these shenanigans with my ICE car and a dealer (they did not want to honor the warrenty for the car battery), this why I knew about bringing the battery to an Auto Parts store.
  - thisisnico 6y ago
    Most warranties treat Car Batteries/Rotors/Pads as a maintenance item and are excluded from warranties.
    - kop316 6y ago
      > are excluded from warranties. If you are curious about my situation, essentially my fiancee went and got the battery replaced at the dealer (we brought in the car for a different issue, and the dealer wanted to replace the battery). About 6 months later, the new battery failed, and this battery also had a very clear sticker saying "3 year warrenty" right on the battery (it was certainly not an OEM part). An auto parts store which helped me confirm that the battery was dead (they were actually very helpful, they offered to charge the battery and diagnosed the issue free of charge). After working with the auto parts store, I called the dealer asking about this. They wanted us to bring the car to them, charge us a $100 diagnostic fee (essentially, doing the same thing the auto parts store did for free), then they would decide if it needed replacing, and not commenting on whether they would honor a free replacement. The battery at the auto parts store was $100! I just decided to buy the battery and install it myself. That battery does have a five year warrenty. I strongly suspect that the original battery was never replaced, based on how they treated my fiancee in both interactions.
- mcot2 6y ago
  Almost everything inside a car works on 12v (door locks, windows, lights, center screen etc). They would like to move to 48v and power over ethernet however they probably have a lot of suppliers and it takes a while to get them all to switch to a new standard.
- tlb 6y ago
  In addition to the other reasons mentioned here, the 12v battery is important in emergency situations. The system is quick to disconnect the 400V battery in the case of a crash, and it relies on the 12V battery to run the air bags and hazard lights.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Also, any first responder approaching a crashed Tesla with metal tools doesn't want to face parts energized to 600v. A short in a 12v system isn't going to kill anyone.
- rektide 6y ago
  needing to keep a step-down (plummet down, at those voltages!) voltage converter continuously running off of main batteries to power some background electronics would be pretty inefficient. the batteries wouldn't like it. where-as alkaline & lead acid batteries are efficient at low-discharge, lithium ion batteries generally don't enjoy low-discharge . buck converters are also probably going to be more efficient when they have some modest load to deliver- otherwise the drive circuitry & mosfets are consuming some (little) juice, just to produce a trickle of power. in general this is an automotive vehicle using automotive rated electronic parts. having a conventional 12v battery-powered architecture for most systems makes loads of sense, is is hella convenient, and based off my above reasoning i'd guess more efficient. yes with that low-drain the inefficiency feels like it probably won't matter but I rest easier thinking that the li-ions can truly rest when the car is off. it's better for them.
- stonkdonk 6y ago
  Teslas, despite their hype, are not some kind of revolutionary car. They use the same technology as every other car, though they improve things where they can, such as their motor efficiency. Standard car parts still need to be powered by low voltage, and it wouldn't make sense to make everything proprietary just for the tesla.
- thaeli 6y ago
  The 12v system is to use standard 12v automotive electronics; every electric (and hybrid) car does this. A 12v SLA battery (these cars do tend to use sealed batteries / AGM with safety vent only) is the cheapest way to provide voltage regulation and power for accessories when the high voltage battery pack is "safed". (Generally, the "start" equivalent for both BEVs and hybrids is a process where the HV battery controller runs multiple safety tests on the high voltage system and then closes relays to connect the HV battery to the rest of the car. This bootstrap process is powered by the 12V SLA battery, since the HV battery is disconnected when "parked" - same reason that the lighting and horn need to run off the 12V battery.) Instead of an alternator, there's a DC-DC buck converter that recharges the SLA battery. SLA is a nice chemistry to use here because it's "self-managing" - you don't need a battery management system for the 12V battery. Tesla has decided to not provide a 120v inverter from the factory. It's not the underlying tech, because other manufacturers do ship inverters and they're a straightforward thing to integrate (as the manufacturer) with the HV battery pack. This is probably about (besides the normal Tesla-being-the-Apple-of-car-companies) battery pack degradation. Tesla currently warranties their battery packs based on mileage, and frequent use as a stationary power bank will put more cycles on the batteries. There is precedent for this - ICE vehicle warranties can be voided for excessive stationary operation. Generally they don't bother for light duty, but medium and heavy duty trucks with PTO have maintenance requirements and warranty terms based on engine running hours as well as mileage.
terramex 6y ago
> This is not a person trying to hook up a power source to the primary Lithium Battery, it is someone hooking up an inverter to a 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has. From linked article: > Through the low voltage architecture, you can get the power from the main battery pack and power several devices on the inverter. I don't know how Tesla is wired but this article suggests that 12V lead acid battery is constantly charged from primary lithium battery. It sounds like hooking up electrical load to main battery but with extra steps.
- wrongdonf 6y ago
  Exactly, nobody should be doing that, it’s a weird edge case that never happens in any case and also Tesla’s are getting rid of their lead acid batteries anyway so good luck to this guy and his lawsuit...
  - random5634 6y ago
    The claim that the vehicle is warrantied for this absolute abuse is ridiculous.
  - thedrbrian 6y ago
    But they’re not dropping it in favour of powering everything from the traction battery , they’re just moving to a lithium 12v. Seems kinda of pointless and only adding cost when they fail.
    - wrongdonf 6y ago
      Yes
- sathackr 6y ago
  This is standard in EVs(and most plug-in hybrids). My 17 Volt has a 175 amp DC-DC converter that charges the 12v battery from the traction battery. It's interesting that this converter is cooled via the same liquid cooling loop that cools the traction battery. I have a 4kw inverter connected to it and have used it several times to power large loads for several days in my home during power outages, including refrigerators, lights, TV/Computers, vacuum cleaners, and also the furnace(as the guy in the article has). I have been doing this since I bought the car in 2018 and the only ill effects are when I forget to turn it off(when the vehicle is off) and it drains the 12v battery. I've done this (drained the 12v battery accidentally) about 20 times so far and it has not noticeably impacted the 12v battery. I also would not expect any warranty support for this charging system and battery as I am clearly using it outside its intended purpose.
random5634 6y ago
What in the WORLD!? This is a tiny 12v house lead acid battery. It is not designed or intended to be used as a stationary power source to POWER A HOUSE! Warranties are for intended use. If I drop a boat out of a helicopter on onto concrete from 1,000 feet and it breaks, I can't make a warranty claim. This is SPECIFICALLY covered in the warrenty for TESLA's as well. Now we are getting legal advice on HN that this violates the magnuson act! This is an only on HN comment. This is not how these batteries are intended to be used. Lawsuits like this are why we have crazy warning labels in Americas on things.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  The argument is, what warranty if void? The battery only (as you assume), or the entire car? The act referenced, is all about this difference. Lets argue on the same page.
  - random5634 6y ago
    The user damaged their battery by plugging in a 2KW inverter. Then they complained that tesla would not give them a free battery as a result. So it seems somewhat clear that Tesla denied replacing the battery in this situation
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      They said "the warranty is void". The pivotal issue is, is it the entire warranty? Or just some sort of sub-warranty on just that component.
      - random5634 6y ago
        We don't know what they said. We are getting second hand knowledge. We know they wouldn't replace battery. The standard approach here is warranty doesn't cover the part you damaged through misuse. So if you stab the car seats with a big knife, they won't give you new seats, but that doesn't void whole warranty. Some things do void entire car warranty, those are pretty standard as well. Things like salvage title, submerged in a flood etc. Others void out powertrain warranty or larger areas, usually pretty logical (flash cars computer with a tune, race car and destroy engine probably one of the more common ones?) Even though just engine may be obviously destroyed, you might lose warranty for entire powertrain (clutch / transmission etc).
czinck 6y ago
> I actually think what Tesla is doing is in fact illegal. It's hard to tell because this article is pretty terrible. It depends on what they mean by "voids warranty". If Tesla just won't replace the 12v battery for free because he deep-cycled it out side of the intended use, that seems pretty reasonable to me. If Tesla tries to use this as an argument against replacing any other part of the car (including the main battery), I think that's pretty clearly a violation of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act. IANAL.
- kop316 6y ago
  Fair. I don't think it would be much of an article though if they just denyed the claim on the battery though.
  - esyir 6y ago
    Never underestimate the power of spin and selective reporting.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> Through the low voltage architecture, you can get the power from the main battery pack and power several devices on the inverter. He was pulling 12v from the 12v battery, but the car was topping up that battery from the main power pack. So he was effectively drawing power from the main pack. This would impact more than the 12v battery. I doubt tesla ever anticipated the 12v battery being discharged so quickly/continuously. They probably just don't know how this might impact any number of systems. An overheating 12v charging/rectifier system could fry something totally unrelated. This is exactly the sort of situation where a warranty for the entire car could/should be voided.
- jsight 6y ago
  The problem is that they can legitimately claim more than that. This massively increases the workload on the DC-DC converter, arguably voiding its warranty as well. Obviously there are things that should still be covered, but there is more potential for harm here than just to the 12V battery itself.
kop316 6y ago
Unfortunately, I can't edit my post any more. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuodaE6WQAA3tKN?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuodaE6WQAA3tKN?format=jpg It looks like they just didn't honor replacing the 12v battery under warrenty, which makes this article pretty much a nonstarter.

by kop316 6y ago

chrisseaton 6y ago

> 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has Why do Teslas still have these wet batteries, do you know? Also, does the Tesla not have a standard wall socket in it? Why would you need to use an inverter?

crowbahr 6y ago
Because they have a prewarm system and 12v lights etc. It helps conserve your actual battery and works well. They have a separate 12v system from their 400v+ system that they use to run the motor.
- thisisnico 6y ago
  I would also assume that most of the cars electronics that aren't propulsion based are manufactured and designed by parts suppliers that base their experience and design around the 12v batteries. Giving them a similar power supply means not having to redesign the cars electronics specifically for Tesla.
kop316 6y ago
I don't own a Tesla, so I don't know. I have dealt with these shenanigans with my ICE car and a dealer (they did not want to honor the warrenty for the car battery), this why I knew about bringing the battery to an Auto Parts store.
- thisisnico 6y ago
  Most warranties treat Car Batteries/Rotors/Pads as a maintenance item and are excluded from warranties.
  - kop316 6y ago
    > are excluded from warranties. If you are curious about my situation, essentially my fiancee went and got the battery replaced at the dealer (we brought in the car for a different issue, and the dealer wanted to replace the battery). About 6 months later, the new battery failed, and this battery also had a very clear sticker saying "3 year warrenty" right on the battery (it was certainly not an OEM part). An auto parts store which helped me confirm that the battery was dead (they were actually very helpful, they offered to charge the battery and diagnosed the issue free of charge). After working with the auto parts store, I called the dealer asking about this. They wanted us to bring the car to them, charge us a $100 diagnostic fee (essentially, doing the same thing the auto parts store did for free), then they would decide if it needed replacing, and not commenting on whether they would honor a free replacement. The battery at the auto parts store was $100! I just decided to buy the battery and install it myself. That battery does have a five year warrenty. I strongly suspect that the original battery was never replaced, based on how they treated my fiancee in both interactions.
mcot2 6y ago
Almost everything inside a car works on 12v (door locks, windows, lights, center screen etc). They would like to move to 48v and power over ethernet however they probably have a lot of suppliers and it takes a while to get them all to switch to a new standard.
tlb 6y ago
In addition to the other reasons mentioned here, the 12v battery is important in emergency situations. The system is quick to disconnect the 400V battery in the case of a crash, and it relies on the 12V battery to run the air bags and hazard lights.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Also, any first responder approaching a crashed Tesla with metal tools doesn't want to face parts energized to 600v. A short in a 12v system isn't going to kill anyone.
rektide 6y ago
needing to keep a step-down (plummet down, at those voltages!) voltage converter continuously running off of main batteries to power some background electronics would be pretty inefficient. the batteries wouldn't like it. where-as alkaline & lead acid batteries are efficient at low-discharge, lithium ion batteries generally don't enjoy low-discharge . buck converters are also probably going to be more efficient when they have some modest load to deliver- otherwise the drive circuitry & mosfets are consuming some (little) juice, just to produce a trickle of power. in general this is an automotive vehicle using automotive rated electronic parts. having a conventional 12v battery-powered architecture for most systems makes loads of sense, is is hella convenient, and based off my above reasoning i'd guess more efficient. yes with that low-drain the inefficiency feels like it probably won't matter but I rest easier thinking that the li-ions can truly rest when the car is off. it's better for them.
stonkdonk 6y ago
Teslas, despite their hype, are not some kind of revolutionary car. They use the same technology as every other car, though they improve things where they can, such as their motor efficiency. Standard car parts still need to be powered by low voltage, and it wouldn't make sense to make everything proprietary just for the tesla.
thaeli 6y ago
The 12v system is to use standard 12v automotive electronics; every electric (and hybrid) car does this. A 12v SLA battery (these cars do tend to use sealed batteries / AGM with safety vent only) is the cheapest way to provide voltage regulation and power for accessories when the high voltage battery pack is "safed". (Generally, the "start" equivalent for both BEVs and hybrids is a process where the HV battery controller runs multiple safety tests on the high voltage system and then closes relays to connect the HV battery to the rest of the car. This bootstrap process is powered by the 12V SLA battery, since the HV battery is disconnected when "parked" - same reason that the lighting and horn need to run off the 12V battery.) Instead of an alternator, there's a DC-DC buck converter that recharges the SLA battery. SLA is a nice chemistry to use here because it's "self-managing" - you don't need a battery management system for the 12V battery. Tesla has decided to not provide a 120v inverter from the factory. It's not the underlying tech, because other manufacturers do ship inverters and they're a straightforward thing to integrate (as the manufacturer) with the HV battery pack. This is probably about (besides the normal Tesla-being-the-Apple-of-car-companies) battery pack degradation. Tesla currently warranties their battery packs based on mileage, and frequent use as a stationary power bank will put more cycles on the batteries. There is precedent for this - ICE vehicle warranties can be voided for excessive stationary operation. Generally they don't bother for light duty, but medium and heavy duty trucks with PTO have maintenance requirements and warranty terms based on engine running hours as well as mileage.

terramex 6y ago

> This is not a person trying to hook up a power source to the primary Lithium Battery, it is someone hooking up an inverter to a 12v lead acid battery that their Tesla also has. From linked article: > Through the low voltage architecture, you can get the power from the main battery pack and power several devices on the inverter. I don't know how Tesla is wired but this article suggests that 12V lead acid battery is constantly charged from primary lithium battery. It sounds like hooking up electrical load to main battery but with extra steps.

wrongdonf 6y ago
Exactly, nobody should be doing that, it’s a weird edge case that never happens in any case and also Tesla’s are getting rid of their lead acid batteries anyway so good luck to this guy and his lawsuit...
- random5634 6y ago
  The claim that the vehicle is warrantied for this absolute abuse is ridiculous.
- thedrbrian 6y ago
  But they’re not dropping it in favour of powering everything from the traction battery , they’re just moving to a lithium 12v. Seems kinda of pointless and only adding cost when they fail.
  - wrongdonf 6y ago
    Yes
sathackr 6y ago
This is standard in EVs(and most plug-in hybrids). My 17 Volt has a 175 amp DC-DC converter that charges the 12v battery from the traction battery. It's interesting that this converter is cooled via the same liquid cooling loop that cools the traction battery. I have a 4kw inverter connected to it and have used it several times to power large loads for several days in my home during power outages, including refrigerators, lights, TV/Computers, vacuum cleaners, and also the furnace(as the guy in the article has). I have been doing this since I bought the car in 2018 and the only ill effects are when I forget to turn it off(when the vehicle is off) and it drains the 12v battery. I've done this (drained the 12v battery accidentally) about 20 times so far and it has not noticeably impacted the 12v battery. I also would not expect any warranty support for this charging system and battery as I am clearly using it outside its intended purpose.

random5634 6y ago

What in the WORLD!? This is a tiny 12v house lead acid battery. It is not designed or intended to be used as a stationary power source to POWER A HOUSE! Warranties are for intended use. If I drop a boat out of a helicopter on onto concrete from 1,000 feet and it breaks, I can't make a warranty claim. This is SPECIFICALLY covered in the warrenty for TESLA's as well. Now we are getting legal advice on HN that this violates the magnuson act! This is an only on HN comment. This is not how these batteries are intended to be used. Lawsuits like this are why we have crazy warning labels in Americas on things.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
The argument is, what warranty if void? The battery only (as you assume), or the entire car? The act referenced, is all about this difference. Lets argue on the same page.
- random5634 6y ago
  The user damaged their battery by plugging in a 2KW inverter. Then they complained that tesla would not give them a free battery as a result. So it seems somewhat clear that Tesla denied replacing the battery in this situation
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    They said "the warranty is void". The pivotal issue is, is it the entire warranty? Or just some sort of sub-warranty on just that component.
    - random5634 6y ago
      We don't know what they said. We are getting second hand knowledge. We know they wouldn't replace battery. The standard approach here is warranty doesn't cover the part you damaged through misuse. So if you stab the car seats with a big knife, they won't give you new seats, but that doesn't void whole warranty. Some things do void entire car warranty, those are pretty standard as well. Things like salvage title, submerged in a flood etc. Others void out powertrain warranty or larger areas, usually pretty logical (flash cars computer with a tune, race car and destroy engine probably one of the more common ones?) Even though just engine may be obviously destroyed, you might lose warranty for entire powertrain (clutch / transmission etc).

czinck 6y ago

> I actually think what Tesla is doing is in fact illegal. It's hard to tell because this article is pretty terrible. It depends on what they mean by "voids warranty". If Tesla just won't replace the 12v battery for free because he deep-cycled it out side of the intended use, that seems pretty reasonable to me. If Tesla tries to use this as an argument against replacing any other part of the car (including the main battery), I think that's pretty clearly a violation of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act. IANAL.

kop316 6y ago
Fair. I don't think it would be much of an article though if they just denyed the claim on the battery though.
- esyir 6y ago
  Never underestimate the power of spin and selective reporting.
sandworm101 6y ago
>> Through the low voltage architecture, you can get the power from the main battery pack and power several devices on the inverter. He was pulling 12v from the 12v battery, but the car was topping up that battery from the main power pack. So he was effectively drawing power from the main pack. This would impact more than the 12v battery. I doubt tesla ever anticipated the 12v battery being discharged so quickly/continuously. They probably just don't know how this might impact any number of systems. An overheating 12v charging/rectifier system could fry something totally unrelated. This is exactly the sort of situation where a warranty for the entire car could/should be voided.
jsight 6y ago
The problem is that they can legitimately claim more than that. This massively increases the workload on the DC-DC converter, arguably voiding its warranty as well. Obviously there are things that should still be covered, but there is more potential for harm here than just to the 12V battery itself.

kop316 6y ago

Unfortunately, I can't edit my post any more. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuodaE6WQAA3tKN?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuodaE6WQAA3tKN?format=jpg It looks like they just didn't honor replacing the 12v battery under warrenty, which makes this article pretty much a nonstarter.