7 ms·

New study finds most Americans don’t care about inequality

31 points by mgh2 6y ago

jschveibinz 6y ago
The title is a bit misleading, so here is what NPR published: “Despite these challenges, a majority of adults across the income spectrum say the American Dream is still alive and within reach. The vast majority of parents and grandparents across all income groups also believe future generations will achieve it. In fact, a majority across all income groups do not believe the gap between the poorest and richest Americans is a very serious problem. Hard work stands out as a “very important” factor for achieving economic success across all income groups. And while research shows how much social factors like family income, neighborhood and race are tied to economic mobility, fewer than four in ten adults across all income groups believe these play an essential or very important role in economic success in America today.”
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  Eliminate British Territorial taxes and it becomes even easier to achieve.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
david927 6y ago
America is 27th in the Global Social Mobility Index. The propaganda that you can "work hard and succeed" is no longer working, especially for the youngest generations. They're seeing that America is becoming a third-world nation with pockets of wealth. And they realize that if we don't start caring about inequality and mobility, it will just get worse.
- will4274 6y ago
  27th of 100+ countries? So like, the top 25%?
  - david927 6y ago
    Almost at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Trying to spin it as a "near-win" is disingenuous. America is closer to Kazakhstan than it is to Germany or France.
    - will4274 6y ago
      I mean, GP said America was becoming a third world country. If you look at the list, it's pretty clear that second world (former Soviet) countries generally have higher social mobility than third world countries but still lesser than the United States. I wasn't trying to spin a near win - just objecting to hyperbole.
      - david927 6y ago
        I don't think "second world" is really used and saying "former soviet" nations means nothing. In the 30 years since that change, nations have developed so differently that it doesn't add much to group them together. That said, I see your point. Please note that I said America is "becoming" a third world country and did not say "already is".
        perl4ever 6y ago
        >I don't think "second world" is really used The (or a) point, I think, of bringing up "second world" is that if you use the term "third world", one is essentially importing that context. If you don't like "second world" you shouldn't use "third world". In denigrating the US, "developing world/country" is not going to work because it isn't pejorative enough. But "third world" is outdated.
- floor2 6y ago
  Essentially all of the "mobility" metrics are case studies in the 3 types of lying- "lies, damned lies and statistics" In many Northern/Western European countries, wages are very compressed around the median, such that relatively small changes in income can move a person from one quintile to another. Unsurprisingly, these countries will show lots of mobility- in the US you might need to go from parents at $30k to child making $100k to have the same "mobility" as a Scandinavian family going from $40k to $50k between generations.
  - david927 6y ago
    You dislike the numbers so you literally make up numbers in response? It doesn't work that way. Calling it lies because European counties have a middle class is crazy. Having a middle-class is an incredibly important part of mobility. Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. A huge portion of America's citizens are living paycheck-to-paycheck and have no way out. Have you been to Scandinavia? No homeless. No destitute poverty. No one is defecating on the streets like they do in San Francisco. There's a big problem here and hand-waving it away because you don't want to look at it won't help.
    - fogihujy 6y ago
      Alas, homelessness and povery exist in the Nordic countries as well. It's much less common herr than in many other places, but there is definitely a lot of people with large debts, living paycheck to paycheck.
      - david927 6y ago
        Sure. I didn't mean that as in actually zero cases. I mean, go to Portland and then go to Oslo. Go to Philly and then go to Copenhagen. The difference is night-and-day.
        fogihujy 6y ago
        Definitely, but in the larger scale of things, Copenhagen is filled to the brink with overvalued buildings financed with zero-interest loans. If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street ("the street" being used as a metaphor for a situation where there's no stable living situation). Denmark and Sweden have managed to keep their housing bubbles intact for now, but I suspect the financial troubles brought on by the pandemic might change the situation quite radically the coming 6 months if the EU don't manage to secure vaccine availability and get the ball rolling.
- dawg- 6y ago
  Is there something wrong with Lithuania and Portugal that it is so bad to be next to them in some world ranking? I get tired of the thinking that if the USA is not "#1 best in the entire history of the world" in these global rankings then we're some kind of abysmal losers.
  - david927 6y ago
    Sorry! No disrespect intended. They both just have a lower GDP and one might think that America with its higher stated GDP could do better. I apologize and have removed it.
- tharne 6y ago
  You're using a rank of 27th out of almost 200 countries to make the claim that America is a third world country? We're in the top tranche in terms of socio-economic mobility and you're trying to spin that as loss? Sure we could do better, but providing better mobility than 80-90% of the world is not exactly horrible.
  - david927 6y ago
    It's out of 82 here and it's nearly at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Also I said it's becoming a third world country.
neatze 6y ago
It seems to me, this is an issue with survivorship bias[1], it is easier to notice person who was nearly homeless and then becomes successful, then most people within a community who have to deal with daily struggle of making ends meet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
colpabar 6y ago
It's hard to imagine anyone with real power is going to look at this study and think "Ohhhhh man, not having enough money really is a problem!" Here are the "key highlights" of the study [1]: - Income matters to health care - Medical bills are a big burden - Housing is unaffordable for many - Food insecurity is a serious problem - Health concerns vary by income So tldr - not having enough money can make life hard. I guess this report is helpful in that it gives a real source of data to support arguments that wealth inequality is a problem, but does anyone really not know that already? [1]: https://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2019/12/survey-shows-starkly-different-life-experience-for-lower-and-middle-income-adults.html https://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2019/12/su...
- 0xbadcafebee 6y ago
  > but does anyone really not know that already? Yes, probably the majority of Americans do not know it as a fact, and any facts are filtered through their own cultural lens. But more importantly, they are simply preoccupied with cultural war over economic or class war. People are much more concerned with whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country, than whether the 1% are keeping them all poor. Political and cultural propaganda has been wildly successful here.
_qulr 6y ago
The stories are misleading about the report. Here's a link to the actual report: https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_polls/2019/rwjf458749 https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_po... Some questions from the survey: Q10. Do you think income differences between the rich and the poor in the U.S. today are a very serious problem, somewhat serious problem, not too serious problem, or not a problem at all? Very serious problem 43% Somewhat serious problem 28% Not too serious problem 13% Not a problem at all 15% Q11. Do you think income differences between the rich and the middle class in the U.S. today are a very serious problem, somewhat serious problem, not too serious problem, or not a problem at all? Very serious problem 35% Somewhat serious problem 29% Not too serious problem 17% Not a problem at all 17% The headline is pretty much the exact opposite of what the survey says, which is that the majority feel these are serious problems. I do think the study authors deserve some blame here. Inexplicably, they chose to frame the results in this way: "fewer than half of adults across all income categories say they think income differences between the rich and the poor or between the rich and the middle-class are very serious problems in the U.S. today." The focus exclusively on "very serious problem" ignores their own categories, which also include "somewhat serious problem". When only 15% believe it's not a problem at all, why would you focus just on one narrowly worded category? Fully 85% percent admit it's a problem. That's a far cry from "don't care".
- snarf21 6y ago
  Nice recap. I'd assume the answer to your question lies in the sponsors of this study and the continued funding of the authors' future work.
- dataflow 6y ago
  I also don't get the obsession with income, it's wealth that matters. People might simply say think massive income inequality isn't a problem because instead they think massive wealth inequality is the real problem.
  - tabtab 6y ago
    Typically the problem is called "income equality". If it used "wealth inequality", it may confuse some. There's often a tradeoff between accuracy and brevity and/or clarity when writing surveys.
armatav 6y ago
The actual survey is nowhere to be found at that foundations website, does someone have a direct link to it? Edit; https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_polls/2019/rwjf458749 https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_po...
pmdulaney 6y ago
My stock conservative answer is, "I am concerned that there be equality of opportunity but not that there be equality of outcome." But that isn't really true. I am concerned about income inequality to the extent that it shows that the economy is broken to some extent. I am not an economist, but it seems to me there do need to be some levers that can rebalance the system more in favor of labor, as opposed to capital. That would perhaps include the strengthening of labor unions, more taxpayer support of public universities, more skilled labor apprenticeship programs. Maybe then young people would be able to own homes without working multiple jobs.
tabtab 6y ago
I wonder if conservatives and progressives would give significantly different answers. It appears they asked political affiliation category, but I didn't see it worked into any summary stats related to "inequality". Maybe if I get the raw data in CSV I can do that myself in MS-Access or Excel.

31 points by mgh2 6y ago

The title is a bit misleading, so here is what NPR published: “Despite these challenges, a majority of adults across the income spectrum say the American Dream is still alive and within reach. The vast majority of parents and grandparents across all income groups also believe future generations will achieve it. In fact, a majority across all income groups do not believe the gap between the poorest and richest Americans is a very serious problem. Hard work stands out as a “very important” factor for achieving economic success across all income groups. And while research shows how much social factors like family income, neighborhood and race are tied to economic mobility, fewer than four in ten adults across all income groups believe these play an essential or very important role in economic success in America today.”

Fjolsvith 6y ago
Eliminate British Territorial taxes and it becomes even easier to achieve.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

david927 6y ago

America is 27th in the Global Social Mobility Index. The propaganda that you can "work hard and succeed" is no longer working, especially for the youngest generations. They're seeing that America is becoming a third-world nation with pockets of wealth. And they realize that if we don't start caring about inequality and mobility, it will just get worse.

will4274 6y ago
27th of 100+ countries? So like, the top 25%?
- david927 6y ago
  Almost at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Trying to spin it as a "near-win" is disingenuous. America is closer to Kazakhstan than it is to Germany or France.
  - will4274 6y ago
    I mean, GP said America was becoming a third world country. If you look at the list, it's pretty clear that second world (former Soviet) countries generally have higher social mobility than third world countries but still lesser than the United States. I wasn't trying to spin a near win - just objecting to hyperbole.
    - david927 6y ago
      I don't think "second world" is really used and saying "former soviet" nations means nothing. In the 30 years since that change, nations have developed so differently that it doesn't add much to group them together. That said, I see your point. Please note that I said America is "becoming" a third world country and did not say "already is".
      - perl4ever 6y ago
        >I don't think "second world" is really used The (or a) point, I think, of bringing up "second world" is that if you use the term "third world", one is essentially importing that context. If you don't like "second world" you shouldn't use "third world". In denigrating the US, "developing world/country" is not going to work because it isn't pejorative enough. But "third world" is outdated.
floor2 6y ago
Essentially all of the "mobility" metrics are case studies in the 3 types of lying- "lies, damned lies and statistics" In many Northern/Western European countries, wages are very compressed around the median, such that relatively small changes in income can move a person from one quintile to another. Unsurprisingly, these countries will show lots of mobility- in the US you might need to go from parents at $30k to child making $100k to have the same "mobility" as a Scandinavian family going from $40k to $50k between generations.
- david927 6y ago
  You dislike the numbers so you literally make up numbers in response? It doesn't work that way. Calling it lies because European counties have a middle class is crazy. Having a middle-class is an incredibly important part of mobility. Nearly 70 percent of Americans have less than $1,000 in savings. A huge portion of America's citizens are living paycheck-to-paycheck and have no way out. Have you been to Scandinavia? No homeless. No destitute poverty. No one is defecating on the streets like they do in San Francisco. There's a big problem here and hand-waving it away because you don't want to look at it won't help.
  - fogihujy 6y ago
    Alas, homelessness and povery exist in the Nordic countries as well. It's much less common herr than in many other places, but there is definitely a lot of people with large debts, living paycheck to paycheck.
    - david927 6y ago
      Sure. I didn't mean that as in actually zero cases. I mean, go to Portland and then go to Oslo. Go to Philly and then go to Copenhagen. The difference is night-and-day.
      - fogihujy 6y ago
        Definitely, but in the larger scale of things, Copenhagen is filled to the brink with overvalued buildings financed with zero-interest loans. If the interest rates start going up, the bubble is going to burst and a _lot_ of people are going to end up on the street ("the street" being used as a metaphor for a situation where there's no stable living situation). Denmark and Sweden have managed to keep their housing bubbles intact for now, but I suspect the financial troubles brought on by the pandemic might change the situation quite radically the coming 6 months if the EU don't manage to secure vaccine availability and get the ball rolling.
dawg- 6y ago
Is there something wrong with Lithuania and Portugal that it is so bad to be next to them in some world ranking? I get tired of the thinking that if the USA is not "#1 best in the entire history of the world" in these global rankings then we're some kind of abysmal losers.
- david927 6y ago
  Sorry! No disrespect intended. They both just have a lower GDP and one might think that America with its higher stated GDP could do better. I apologize and have removed it.
tharne 6y ago
You're using a rank of 27th out of almost 200 countries to make the claim that America is a third world country? We're in the top tranche in terms of socio-economic mobility and you're trying to spin that as loss? Sure we could do better, but providing better mobility than 80-90% of the world is not exactly horrible.
- david927 6y ago
  It's out of 82 here and it's nearly at the bottom of the industrialized nations. Also I said it's becoming a third world country.

neatze 6y ago

It seems to me, this is an issue with survivorship bias[1], it is easier to notice person who was nearly homeless and then becomes successful, then most people within a community who have to deal with daily struggle of making ends meet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

colpabar 6y ago

It's hard to imagine anyone with real power is going to look at this study and think "Ohhhhh man, not having enough money really is a problem!" Here are the "key highlights" of the study [1]: - Income matters to health care - Medical bills are a big burden - Housing is unaffordable for many - Food insecurity is a serious problem - Health concerns vary by income So tldr - not having enough money can make life hard. I guess this report is helpful in that it gives a real source of data to support arguments that wealth inequality is a problem, but does anyone really not know that already? [1]: https://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2019/12/survey-shows-starkly-different-life-experience-for-lower-and-middle-income-adults.html https://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2019/12/su...

0xbadcafebee 6y ago
> but does anyone really not know that already? Yes, probably the majority of Americans do not know it as a fact, and any facts are filtered through their own cultural lens. But more importantly, they are simply preoccupied with cultural war over economic or class war. People are much more concerned with whether liberals or conservatives are ruining the country, than whether the 1% are keeping them all poor. Political and cultural propaganda has been wildly successful here.

_qulr 6y ago

The stories are misleading about the report. Here's a link to the actual report: https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_polls/2019/rwjf458749 https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_po... Some questions from the survey: Q10. Do you think income differences between the rich and the poor in the U.S. today are a very serious problem, somewhat serious problem, not too serious problem, or not a problem at all? Very serious problem 43% Somewhat serious problem 28% Not too serious problem 13% Not a problem at all 15% Q11. Do you think income differences between the rich and the middle class in the U.S. today are a very serious problem, somewhat serious problem, not too serious problem, or not a problem at all? Very serious problem 35% Somewhat serious problem 29% Not too serious problem 17% Not a problem at all 17% The headline is pretty much the exact opposite of what the survey says, which is that the majority feel these are serious problems. I do think the study authors deserve some blame here. Inexplicably, they chose to frame the results in this way: "fewer than half of adults across all income categories say they think income differences between the rich and the poor or between the rich and the middle-class are very serious problems in the U.S. today." The focus exclusively on "very serious problem" ignores their own categories, which also include "somewhat serious problem". When only 15% believe it's not a problem at all, why would you focus just on one narrowly worded category? Fully 85% percent admit it's a problem. That's a far cry from "don't care".

snarf21 6y ago
Nice recap. I'd assume the answer to your question lies in the sponsors of this study and the continued funding of the authors' future work.
dataflow 6y ago
I also don't get the obsession with income, it's wealth that matters. People might simply say think massive income inequality isn't a problem because instead they think massive wealth inequality is the real problem.
- tabtab 6y ago
  Typically the problem is called "income equality". If it used "wealth inequality", it may confuse some. There's often a tradeoff between accuracy and brevity and/or clarity when writing surveys.

armatav 6y ago

The actual survey is nowhere to be found at that foundations website, does someone have a direct link to it? Edit; https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_polls/2019/rwjf458749 https://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/surveys_and_po...

pmdulaney 6y ago

My stock conservative answer is, "I am concerned that there be equality of opportunity but not that there be equality of outcome." But that isn't really true. I am concerned about income inequality to the extent that it shows that the economy is broken to some extent. I am not an economist, but it seems to me there do need to be some levers that can rebalance the system more in favor of labor, as opposed to capital. That would perhaps include the strengthening of labor unions, more taxpayer support of public universities, more skilled labor apprenticeship programs. Maybe then young people would be able to own homes without working multiple jobs.

tabtab 6y ago

I wonder if conservatives and progressives would give significantly different answers. It appears they asked political affiliation category, but I didn't see it worked into any summary stats related to "inequality". Maybe if I get the raw data in CSV I can do that myself in MS-Access or Excel.