5 ms·

It's more of sending a message than being punitive.

by ganeshkrishnan 6y ago

lotsofpulp 6y ago
The message that there isn’t much punishment?
- agumonkey 6y ago
  At least he's being recognized as guilty. Socially its way better than evading any consequences or getting a bogus sentence like case dismissal because some formality mistake.
  - tpush 6y ago
    > Socially its way better than evading any consequences or getting a bogus sentence like case dismissal because some formality mistake. But he is getting away without any (real) consequences. Being sentenced guilty without much punishment does exactly nothing to deter a politician from committing crimes, nor does it stop citizens from losing trust in their institutions.
    - agumonkey 6y ago
      Hmm not in my book. It's surely minuscule, but he's now labelled as guilty. It's a stain, your reputation is lower, some people may avoid you. Who wants to spend time with a convicted person ?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - adolph 6y ago
        Here is example n of infinite: Microsoft founder and multibillionaire Bill Gates said Wednesday that he “made a mistake” meeting with convicted sex criminal and wealthy financier Jeffrey Epstein to discuss philanthropy. Gates met with Epstein multiple times – including in 2013 while he was the chairman of Microsoft – years after the disgraced financier had struck a plea deal on prostitution related charges filed by Florida prosecutors in 2008. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/06/bill-gates-says-i-made-a-mistake-meeting-with-jeffrey-epstein.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/06/bill-gates-says-i-made-a-mis...
      - Agingcoder 6y ago
        In France, a surprisingly large number of people, probably because our reputation for bending rules is well-deserved. The number of high profile politicians who got re-elected after being sentenced is very high. Alain Juppe was even about to run for president, in spite of not having an exactly pristine record. If you're curious about the kind of surreal scandals which happened 25 years ago, the helicopter affair is my favorite one (you'll have to scroll down to the 'controversial' section) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Toubon?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Toubon?wprov=sfla1 It's no surprise in this context that it took forever to sentence Jacques Chirac! Things have been slowly changing over the past 10 years though, with popular opinion being less tolerant.
- alex_duf 6y ago
  It's stopping him from being a candidate for the next elections at least. Not great but I'll take that.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cmehdy 6y ago
Sarkozy was rolling out the red carpet for Qaddafi (not metaphorically, he literally rolled out a red carpet and let him pitch a tent at the Elysée[0]) only to be the loudest mouth to call air strikes on him a few years later[1]. If you're not high enough in a position of power but only halfway there, you might see a prison cell like Balkany but you just have to claim to have attempted suicide and say you're too old and you'll be let out[2]. Try being suicidal in the French prison system without having embezzled millions and I can guarantee it won't go that well for you. In Balkany's case, you can even dance in the streets and be recorded in perfect health afterwards and all will be well. The only messages being given are that if you've made it to the top you can go to your death bed having done anything without seeing a prison cell, and if you've stolen millions in public funds you can just say you're frail and dance about your freedom in the streets[3] afterwards. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/world/europe/10iht-france.4.8676568.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/world/europe/10iht-france... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/11/nicolas-sarkozy-libya-air-strikes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/11/nicolas-sarkoz... [2] https://fcced.com/fmr-french-mayor-jailed-money-laundering-released/ https://fcced.com/fmr-french-mayor-jailed-money-laundering-r... [3] https://ananova.news/paris-mayor-too-weak-for-jail-seen-dancing-in-street/ https://ananova.news/paris-mayor-too-weak-for-jail-seen-danc...
- leto_ii 6y ago
  > The only messages being given are that if you've made it to the top you can go to your death bed having done anything without seeing a prison cell In the case of Christine Lagarde this was actually made explicit. She was found guilty but not punished, because she was too important: "but given the circumstances, given the responsibilities that Ms. Lagarde had at the time — in 2008, we were in a major economic crisis — the court decided that it would not sentence Ms. Lagarde to anything" [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/business/imf-trial-christine-lagarde-france-verdict.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/business/imf-trial-christ...
- ganeshkrishnan 6y ago
  I agree with you and this is quite common knowledge in France. However when was the last time a crime committed by a high ranking politician in the western world really punished? Sarcozy took money from Gaddafi and literally bombed him after that. When France supposedly ran out of ammunition they start dropping concrete from planes over Libya. (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/04/france-dropping-non-explosive-bombs-libya/350160/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/04/fr...) Plenty of people owed money to Gaddafi and when they couldn't repay it was time to dispose him off.

It's more of sending a message than being punitive.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

The message that there isn’t much punishment?

agumonkey 6y ago
At least he's being recognized as guilty. Socially its way better than evading any consequences or getting a bogus sentence like case dismissal because some formality mistake.
- tpush 6y ago
  > Socially its way better than evading any consequences or getting a bogus sentence like case dismissal because some formality mistake. But he is getting away without any (real) consequences. Being sentenced guilty without much punishment does exactly nothing to deter a politician from committing crimes, nor does it stop citizens from losing trust in their institutions.
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    Hmm not in my book. It's surely minuscule, but he's now labelled as guilty. It's a stain, your reputation is lower, some people may avoid you. Who wants to spend time with a convicted person ?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - adolph 6y ago
      Here is example n of infinite: Microsoft founder and multibillionaire Bill Gates said Wednesday that he “made a mistake” meeting with convicted sex criminal and wealthy financier Jeffrey Epstein to discuss philanthropy. Gates met with Epstein multiple times – including in 2013 while he was the chairman of Microsoft – years after the disgraced financier had struck a plea deal on prostitution related charges filed by Florida prosecutors in 2008. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/06/bill-gates-says-i-made-a-mistake-meeting-with-jeffrey-epstein.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/06/bill-gates-says-i-made-a-mis...
    - Agingcoder 6y ago
      In France, a surprisingly large number of people, probably because our reputation for bending rules is well-deserved. The number of high profile politicians who got re-elected after being sentenced is very high. Alain Juppe was even about to run for president, in spite of not having an exactly pristine record. If you're curious about the kind of surreal scandals which happened 25 years ago, the helicopter affair is my favorite one (you'll have to scroll down to the 'controversial' section) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Toubon?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Toubon?wprov=sfla1 It's no surprise in this context that it took forever to sentence Jacques Chirac! Things have been slowly changing over the past 10 years though, with popular opinion being less tolerant.
alex_duf 6y ago
It's stopping him from being a candidate for the next elections at least. Not great but I'll take that.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cmehdy 6y ago

Sarkozy was rolling out the red carpet for Qaddafi (not metaphorically, he literally rolled out a red carpet and let him pitch a tent at the Elysée[0]) only to be the loudest mouth to call air strikes on him a few years later[1]. If you're not high enough in a position of power but only halfway there, you might see a prison cell like Balkany but you just have to claim to have attempted suicide and say you're too old and you'll be let out[2]. Try being suicidal in the French prison system without having embezzled millions and I can guarantee it won't go that well for you. In Balkany's case, you can even dance in the streets and be recorded in perfect health afterwards and all will be well. The only messages being given are that if you've made it to the top you can go to your death bed having done anything without seeing a prison cell, and if you've stolen millions in public funds you can just say you're frail and dance about your freedom in the streets[3] afterwards. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/world/europe/10iht-france.4.8676568.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/world/europe/10iht-france... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/11/nicolas-sarkozy-libya-air-strikes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/11/nicolas-sarkoz... [2] https://fcced.com/fmr-french-mayor-jailed-money-laundering-released/ https://fcced.com/fmr-french-mayor-jailed-money-laundering-r... [3] https://ananova.news/paris-mayor-too-weak-for-jail-seen-dancing-in-street/ https://ananova.news/paris-mayor-too-weak-for-jail-seen-danc...

leto_ii 6y ago
> The only messages being given are that if you've made it to the top you can go to your death bed having done anything without seeing a prison cell In the case of Christine Lagarde this was actually made explicit. She was found guilty but not punished, because she was too important: "but given the circumstances, given the responsibilities that Ms. Lagarde had at the time — in 2008, we were in a major economic crisis — the court decided that it would not sentence Ms. Lagarde to anything" [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/business/imf-trial-christine-lagarde-france-verdict.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/business/imf-trial-christ...
ganeshkrishnan 6y ago
I agree with you and this is quite common knowledge in France. However when was the last time a crime committed by a high ranking politician in the western world really punished? Sarcozy took money from Gaddafi and literally bombed him after that. When France supposedly ran out of ammunition they start dropping concrete from planes over Libya. (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/04/france-dropping-non-explosive-bombs-libya/350160/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/04/fr...) Plenty of people owed money to Gaddafi and when they couldn't repay it was time to dispose him off.