7 ms·

The part about cars is pretty spot on, I'm upper middle class and I've been able to save so much money by getting rid of my car. On the low end you're going to

The part about cars is pretty spot on, I'm upper middle class and I've been able to save so much money by getting rid of my car. On the low end you're going to hit 300 to 500 dollars a month for the privilege of driving. The problem here is America simply isn't built for public transit. But since cars are a status symbol, people still go down to Toyota, or Honda and as long as they can make that first down payment they get to drive a new car. I was talking to a rather brash car salesman and he laughed about how he can tell who's going to get their car repoed. Cars are the single biggest reason why so many people can't get ahead. You also have a gargantuan maze of cascading consequences when you really can't afford a car. You don't have insurance because you can't afford it, you get in an accident and lose your license. As the article states that doesn't stop you from needing to drive. Then you get pulled over and risk getting arrested. I'm very lucky in that I don't need to drive a car, even when you can afford one driving to work every day can be a truly hellish experience.

sandworm101 6y ago
>> I'm upper middle class and I've been able to save so much money by getting rid of my car. Because you probably have job at a desk with a computer. You don't physically do much and so your per-minute presence at work isn't mandatory. If you are a few minutes late the world is not going to end and your workday rarely starts before 5am. You can handle the ins and outs of public transportation and/or you can afford to live close enough to walk/bike. I have a job that, while it pays well enough I have to be physically present (military, long story). While I am paid well enough I will get into real trouble if I am not on time every day. Sometimes I'm on call and have to get to work within 30-minutes of receiving a phonecall. I'd like to ditch the car, but I don't see any other reliable 24/7/365 transpiration options. Some of the people who work under me, and earn considerably less, are lobbying for "have own car" and "have own cellphone" to be listed work requirements. That might make at least some associated costs tax deductible.
- acdha 6y ago
  I think the rest of their post after the part you quoted agrees with your point. So much of the US was designed or redesigned to only work for people who own cars but we still love to talk about them as if they were voluntary expenses ignoring the number of people who are one breakdown or accident away from unemployment & lack of access to healthcare.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    What city has public transit that will get you safely and quickly to work at 3AM? What city design will still accomplish all that after your job relocates 15 miles further away?
    - acdha 6y ago
      That was kind of my point: switching to suburban living, heavily subsidizing roads and parking but not having effective transit (or only having it for, say, tourists and sports venues rather than something a commuter could rely on), etc. are all choices which were repeatedly made by planners. We can make other choices and, especially now, climate change is likely to force us to consider at least some of them since even an electric car has a significant lifetime carbon emission contribution disadvantage due to the inherent spatial inefficiency of the medium.
    - fr2null 6y ago
      Not with public transport, but in my (Dutch) city I can get everywhere, safely, within a reasonable amount of time, at all times of the day, by bike. From one end to the other wouldn't be exactly 15 minutes, but it would be under 30. With an electronic bike you can probably make that 20 minutes.
- offtop5 6y ago
  Actually in my area public transportation is more reliable than driving. Nothing like being able to play video games during your commute
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    The video game thing is interesting. If we one day get truly autodrive cars, would a long commute matter as much? If I can literally sleep as the computer does the driving I probably wouldn't care so much about a longer commute.
    - offtop5 6y ago
      Wear and tear on the car would be an issue, even if you presume Tesla's can effectively drive themselves for free, Tesla still break down. I don't think I'd be okay with anything over an hour each way
      - gibspaulding 6y ago
        I'm really curious to see what the longevity of future electric cars ends up looking like. In theory electric motors should be able to last way longer than an ICE, and most other wear parts (suspension, breaks, etc) should be straight forward to replace. The big question would be batteries, and in the case of Tesla at least right to repair issues.
        sandworm101 6y ago
        >> In theory electric motors should be able to last way longer than an ICE Except that it is very rare for a car to be scrapped because of its engine. IC engines are mature tech. They last forever, longer than the body of the car. Extending the life of the engine further won't extend the life of the vehicle. And for such calculations one must include the battery packs. I think it safe to say that while electric motors might marginally outlast IC engines, I don't think that batteries will every have a functional lifespan longer than a gas tank (many decades, maybe even a century.)
- tangjurine 6y ago
  What about a motorcycle? Cheaper and insurance not required.
  - PenguinCoder 6y ago
    Motorcycle can't carry kids (in the US) safely, or other needs like groceries. And yes, insurance is still required.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Also, you can use special lanes and in California lane split. If you're willing to take on the risk, and live in a sunny place, motorcycles can compete with public transport in cost.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    I don't have much confidence in most people being able to drive a car. While motorcycles do look really cool, it's just not something most people can safely do
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      The proliferation of moped-like vehicles that exist right below the "everything beyond here is legally a motorcycle and the state makes you obtain an extra license and insure it like a car thereby providing a massive dis-incentive to not just get a car" line seems to indicate plenty of people are fine with the risks.
      - acdha 6y ago
        Fine might not be the right term: there definitely are people okay with the risk, especially given how much faster they’ll get to their destination, but given how much more expensive cars are there’s also a financial push to take a possible risk over certain financial stress.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    >> ... insurance not required. Where exactly is insurance not required for a motorcycle? Or do you mean moped? And it was -12c with two inches of snow on my car this morning. Anything on two wheels would be lethal. Good luck even riding a bicycle with two inches of new snow over a season's worth of compact ice.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> On the low end you're going to hit 300 to 500 dollars a month for the privilege of driving. How is maintaining a car costing you so much?
- kingnothing 6y ago
  $100 / month on gas, $200 / month for a car payment, $100 / month for insurance. That's not even accounting for maintenance.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    $1200 a year insurance? Seems a huge amount! Is this one of those things where it's for some reason more expensive for poor people?
    - buescher 6y ago
      It's more expensive for people who haven't been continuously insured, who have had accidents, or who otherwise have a poor driving record. That's a larger fraction of poor people than it is of not-poor people, so yes, typically insurance is more expensive for poor people.
    - kingnothing 6y ago
      Say it's half that or you drive uninsured. A car is still a big expense.
    - bobitsaboy 6y ago
      You think $100/mo for car insurance is expensive? The average car insurance rate is apparently $133, but I personally know it's not very hard to hit more than $100 (even on an older model car) if you want more than liability. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insurance/car-insurance-basics/how-much-is-car-insurance/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insurance/car-insurance-basi...
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
adamredwoods 6y ago
I used to take public transportation that took 2 hours each way to get to my job. Then I bought my first car for $500. It was such great freedom. Then, years later, I moved to the city and was able to get rid of my car. It was great freedom. Then, years later, I got married and had a child. We bought and owned two cars. It was great freedom.
- objektif 6y ago
  I can kind of relate to it however in my opinion being able to solely rely on public transportation in the city is still the best kind of freedom.

sandworm101 6y ago

>> I'm upper middle class and I've been able to save so much money by getting rid of my car. Because you probably have job at a desk with a computer. You don't physically do much and so your per-minute presence at work isn't mandatory. If you are a few minutes late the world is not going to end and your workday rarely starts before 5am. You can handle the ins and outs of public transportation and/or you can afford to live close enough to walk/bike. I have a job that, while it pays well enough I have to be physically present (military, long story). While I am paid well enough I will get into real trouble if I am not on time every day. Sometimes I'm on call and have to get to work within 30-minutes of receiving a phonecall. I'd like to ditch the car, but I don't see any other reliable 24/7/365 transpiration options. Some of the people who work under me, and earn considerably less, are lobbying for "have own car" and "have own cellphone" to be listed work requirements. That might make at least some associated costs tax deductible.

acdha 6y ago
I think the rest of their post after the part you quoted agrees with your point. So much of the US was designed or redesigned to only work for people who own cars but we still love to talk about them as if they were voluntary expenses ignoring the number of people who are one breakdown or accident away from unemployment & lack of access to healthcare.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  What city has public transit that will get you safely and quickly to work at 3AM? What city design will still accomplish all that after your job relocates 15 miles further away?
  - acdha 6y ago
    That was kind of my point: switching to suburban living, heavily subsidizing roads and parking but not having effective transit (or only having it for, say, tourists and sports venues rather than something a commuter could rely on), etc. are all choices which were repeatedly made by planners. We can make other choices and, especially now, climate change is likely to force us to consider at least some of them since even an electric car has a significant lifetime carbon emission contribution disadvantage due to the inherent spatial inefficiency of the medium.
  - fr2null 6y ago
    Not with public transport, but in my (Dutch) city I can get everywhere, safely, within a reasonable amount of time, at all times of the day, by bike. From one end to the other wouldn't be exactly 15 minutes, but it would be under 30. With an electronic bike you can probably make that 20 minutes.
offtop5 6y ago
Actually in my area public transportation is more reliable than driving. Nothing like being able to play video games during your commute
- sandworm101 6y ago
  The video game thing is interesting. If we one day get truly autodrive cars, would a long commute matter as much? If I can literally sleep as the computer does the driving I probably wouldn't care so much about a longer commute.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    Wear and tear on the car would be an issue, even if you presume Tesla's can effectively drive themselves for free, Tesla still break down. I don't think I'd be okay with anything over an hour each way
    - gibspaulding 6y ago
      I'm really curious to see what the longevity of future electric cars ends up looking like. In theory electric motors should be able to last way longer than an ICE, and most other wear parts (suspension, breaks, etc) should be straight forward to replace. The big question would be batteries, and in the case of Tesla at least right to repair issues.
      - sandworm101 6y ago
        >> In theory electric motors should be able to last way longer than an ICE Except that it is very rare for a car to be scrapped because of its engine. IC engines are mature tech. They last forever, longer than the body of the car. Extending the life of the engine further won't extend the life of the vehicle. And for such calculations one must include the battery packs. I think it safe to say that while electric motors might marginally outlast IC engines, I don't think that batteries will every have a functional lifespan longer than a gas tank (many decades, maybe even a century.)
tangjurine 6y ago
What about a motorcycle? Cheaper and insurance not required.
- PenguinCoder 6y ago
  Motorcycle can't carry kids (in the US) safely, or other needs like groceries. And yes, insurance is still required.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Also, you can use special lanes and in California lane split. If you're willing to take on the risk, and live in a sunny place, motorcycles can compete with public transport in cost.
- offtop5 6y ago
  I don't have much confidence in most people being able to drive a car. While motorcycles do look really cool, it's just not something most people can safely do
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    The proliferation of moped-like vehicles that exist right below the "everything beyond here is legally a motorcycle and the state makes you obtain an extra license and insure it like a car thereby providing a massive dis-incentive to not just get a car" line seems to indicate plenty of people are fine with the risks.
    - acdha 6y ago
      Fine might not be the right term: there definitely are people okay with the risk, especially given how much faster they’ll get to their destination, but given how much more expensive cars are there’s also a financial push to take a possible risk over certain financial stress.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> ... insurance not required. Where exactly is insurance not required for a motorcycle? Or do you mean moped? And it was -12c with two inches of snow on my car this morning. Anything on two wheels would be lethal. Good luck even riding a bicycle with two inches of new snow over a season's worth of compact ice.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> On the low end you're going to hit 300 to 500 dollars a month for the privilege of driving. How is maintaining a car costing you so much?

kingnothing 6y ago
$100 / month on gas, $200 / month for a car payment, $100 / month for insurance. That's not even accounting for maintenance.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  $1200 a year insurance? Seems a huge amount! Is this one of those things where it's for some reason more expensive for poor people?
  - buescher 6y ago
    It's more expensive for people who haven't been continuously insured, who have had accidents, or who otherwise have a poor driving record. That's a larger fraction of poor people than it is of not-poor people, so yes, typically insurance is more expensive for poor people.
  - kingnothing 6y ago
    Say it's half that or you drive uninsured. A car is still a big expense.
  - bobitsaboy 6y ago
    You think $100/mo for car insurance is expensive? The average car insurance rate is apparently $133, but I personally know it's not very hard to hit more than $100 (even on an older model car) if you want more than liability. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insurance/car-insurance-basics/how-much-is-car-insurance/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insurance/car-insurance-basi...
    - chrisseaton 6y ago

adamredwoods 6y ago

I used to take public transportation that took 2 hours each way to get to my job. Then I bought my first car for $500. It was such great freedom. Then, years later, I moved to the city and was able to get rid of my car. It was great freedom. Then, years later, I got married and had a child. We bought and owned two cars. It was great freedom.

objektif 6y ago
I can kind of relate to it however in my opinion being able to solely rely on public transportation in the city is still the best kind of freedom.