4 ms·

It still strikes me as weird that Apple went with Touch ID vs Face ID on the Mac. Computer form factors in general, and particularly notebooks and AIOs, should

by xoa 6y ago

It still strikes me as weird that Apple went with Touch ID vs Face ID on the Mac. Computer form factors in general, and particularly notebooks and AIOs, should be perfect for Face ID: the user is always at a good distance, in the right position, looking at it, and as you say will frequently have their hands otherwise occupied actually controlling the system. For that matter a Face ID+iPhone-quality camera thing for Macs that could attach to an external monitor would be a pretty useful value-add, and it would equalize things across all Macs meaning it could be depended on more. It's remained really perplexing that year after year when Apple left Touch ID far behind on iOS they haven't installed Face ID where it'd be even better. I assume this is mainly another one of many symptoms of Apple just not being able to multitask very well and the Mac not really getting that much concerted attention.

ncrmro 6y ago
I feel like it’s only a matter of time
nikanj 6y ago
Less likely to accidentally fool you into tapping the finger sensor vs fool you into showing your face to the camera
- jaywalk 6y ago
  Not sure how "fooling" comes into play. Only trusted applications can request to use Touch ID/Face ID in the first place. It's not like there's a way for a random application to just say "Scan your face and let me take over your machine"
  - nikanj 6y ago
    Exploits do happen, and to me it sounds reasonable that a web page gets local unprivileged code execution -> sudo (which is a trusted application) -> my face was already in front of the camera -> root. I guess this could be circumvented with a "click OK if you agree to get face ID" dialog or similar. Anyway, you need to figure out a way to deal with the "key" always being in the lock if you're using face id on a laptop.
  - gumby 6y ago
    One point is that the touch prompt is “out of band”: it shows up in its own window. Some other app could open that request while you’re looking elsewhere then yiu type sudo, look up, see it (without focus), so click it and then put your finger on the sensor. When your sudo remains blocked you see the other, click I, and proceed under the assumption it was a glitch. Sounds complicated but is actually quite plausible. And worse under face I’d as it would be more seamless. iOS is different as the user interface is largely single task (slightly less under ipad) and background tasks that need face ID need a notification and explicit selection to get it
- xoa 6y ago
  Could say the same thing about iOS, and this is a silly UX complaint anyway. Apple could easily offer or require some purposeful interaction using mouse/keyboard along with Face ID and it'd still be a nicer UX.
marcinzm 6y ago
I suspect the main reason is that the face-id camera module is too thick and they'd need to increase the thickness of the display casing. If there's on thing the Mac designers will never allow it's a thicker laptop.
- xoa 6y ago
  Based on iFixit's iPhone 12 teardown and thus the most recent version of the module, I think they might be able to get it into the screen without much compromise. An important consideration here is that it's not just about the Face ID bit, it's about the better camera bit. While it was important even earlier, this past year has made videoconferencing and other remote work rocket up in priorities, and Macs suck pretty badly by modern standards in terms of camera quality. It's a big, by definition both very visible and very social feature (because everyone else in the conference can see how good/bad you look). I think that might be a motivation for Apple that Face ID by itself wouldn't have. However that aside, thickness concerns don't apply a single bit to the iMac or to a standalone (Mac only) module (or even integration in Apple's ultra fancy display), so that objection doesn't cover the spectrum of Macs.
  - gumby 6y ago
    > It's a big, by definition both very visible and very social feature But you only see yourself as a thumbnail so the feedback is quite lossy.
  - djrogers 6y ago
    The current thickness of the MacBook lid (my 16") is <3.5mm, and the faceID module is >3.5mm. Given that you need glass and metal in that 3.5mm as well as the faceID module, you're talking about significantly changing the dimensions of the MacBooks to do this with today's faceID module. I look forward to the day they do get it fit in there though (hoping that the Silicon redesign allows for it)!
gumby 6y ago
> It still strikes me as weird that Apple went with Touch ID vs Face ID on the Mac BTW the face system is so automatic on the phone that I don't think I'd want it for much beyond login. The flow-breaking reminders when installing apps and the explicit requirement of typing sudo are good ways to require deliberate intent for dependent risks. Login, App Store purchases and the like would be OK by me if controlled by face. All that being said: the Mac camera remains astonishingly terrible (see a recent HN front pager about how bad webcams are in general). Not just low resolution but poor white balance etc. I am not sure it's been upgraded in the last decade. There is much speculation as to why (no room in the lid, which is plausible); I feel like for some reason this is an issue on which they simply don't care for some reason as they make a lot of fuss about the changes in speaker and microphone. Perhaps it simply is good enough, based on the innumerable Zoom calls I've been on. Face ID needs more than a better camera, it also needs an IR channel. I do expect that when they finally do get around to upgrading the camera system they will jump ahead to something like the iphone front facing system.

by xoa 6y ago

ncrmro 6y ago

I feel like it’s only a matter of time

nikanj 6y ago

Less likely to accidentally fool you into tapping the finger sensor vs fool you into showing your face to the camera

jaywalk 6y ago
Not sure how "fooling" comes into play. Only trusted applications can request to use Touch ID/Face ID in the first place. It's not like there's a way for a random application to just say "Scan your face and let me take over your machine"
- nikanj 6y ago
  Exploits do happen, and to me it sounds reasonable that a web page gets local unprivileged code execution -> sudo (which is a trusted application) -> my face was already in front of the camera -> root. I guess this could be circumvented with a "click OK if you agree to get face ID" dialog or similar. Anyway, you need to figure out a way to deal with the "key" always being in the lock if you're using face id on a laptop.
- gumby 6y ago
  One point is that the touch prompt is “out of band”: it shows up in its own window. Some other app could open that request while you’re looking elsewhere then yiu type sudo, look up, see it (without focus), so click it and then put your finger on the sensor. When your sudo remains blocked you see the other, click I, and proceed under the assumption it was a glitch. Sounds complicated but is actually quite plausible. And worse under face I’d as it would be more seamless. iOS is different as the user interface is largely single task (slightly less under ipad) and background tasks that need face ID need a notification and explicit selection to get it
xoa 6y ago
Could say the same thing about iOS, and this is a silly UX complaint anyway. Apple could easily offer or require some purposeful interaction using mouse/keyboard along with Face ID and it'd still be a nicer UX.

marcinzm 6y ago

I suspect the main reason is that the face-id camera module is too thick and they'd need to increase the thickness of the display casing. If there's on thing the Mac designers will never allow it's a thicker laptop.

xoa 6y ago
Based on iFixit's iPhone 12 teardown and thus the most recent version of the module, I think they might be able to get it into the screen without much compromise. An important consideration here is that it's not just about the Face ID bit, it's about the better camera bit. While it was important even earlier, this past year has made videoconferencing and other remote work rocket up in priorities, and Macs suck pretty badly by modern standards in terms of camera quality. It's a big, by definition both very visible and very social feature (because everyone else in the conference can see how good/bad you look). I think that might be a motivation for Apple that Face ID by itself wouldn't have. However that aside, thickness concerns don't apply a single bit to the iMac or to a standalone (Mac only) module (or even integration in Apple's ultra fancy display), so that objection doesn't cover the spectrum of Macs.
- gumby 6y ago
  > It's a big, by definition both very visible and very social feature But you only see yourself as a thumbnail so the feedback is quite lossy.
- djrogers 6y ago
  The current thickness of the MacBook lid (my 16") is <3.5mm, and the faceID module is >3.5mm. Given that you need glass and metal in that 3.5mm as well as the faceID module, you're talking about significantly changing the dimensions of the MacBooks to do this with today's faceID module. I look forward to the day they do get it fit in there though (hoping that the Silicon redesign allows for it)!

gumby 6y ago

> It still strikes me as weird that Apple went with Touch ID vs Face ID on the Mac BTW the face system is so automatic on the phone that I don't think I'd want it for much beyond login. The flow-breaking reminders when installing apps and the explicit requirement of typing sudo are good ways to require deliberate intent for dependent risks. Login, App Store purchases and the like would be OK by me if controlled by face. All that being said: the Mac camera remains astonishingly terrible (see a recent HN front pager about how bad webcams are in general). Not just low resolution but poor white balance etc. I am not sure it's been upgraded in the last decade. There is much speculation as to why (no room in the lid, which is plausible); I feel like for some reason this is an issue on which they simply don't care for some reason as they make a lot of fuss about the changes in speaker and microphone. Perhaps it simply is good enough, based on the innumerable Zoom calls I've been on. Face ID needs more than a better camera, it also needs an IR channel. I do expect that when they finally do get around to upgrading the camera system they will jump ahead to something like the iphone front facing system.