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> "But instead of getting the other 50% from a relatively clean source (nuclear), they choose instead to use fossil fuels." Unless you're saying that Germany i

> "But instead of getting the other 50% from a relatively clean source (nuclear), they choose instead to use fossil fuels." Unless you're saying that Germany is choosing to build new fossil fuel plants instead of building more renewables (which it largely isn't), what you're describing is a transition that isn't finished yet, not a choice.

ohgodplsno 6y ago
This transition can _never_ be finished. There is no reality in which, in 2025, or 2030, or 2040, Germany is running 100% on renewables. Let's have a quick look at the german energy mix: https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE As I write this: * Germany has 68GW of wind capacity. Only 3GW are currently producing, because there's no wind. * Solar is doing just as bad, with 9.11GW active out of 53GW * Even worse, in the last 24 hours, wind has basically been at 5% capacity the entire time. Solar picked up quite a bit, but the base production is guaranteed by coal plants. This gets immensely worse at night where this rises to over half of their energy output * Each kWh has cost the world the emission of 400g of CO2. * Even in the best possible conditions, their green mix still ejects 210g of carbon per kWh. The green energy ayatollahs, with their there-is-no-alternative policy are making things worse by refusing a temporary, controlled, safe source of energy. Is nuclear ideal ? No. Should it be a temporary (~100 years or so) source of energy while we transition to better options ? Yes. Is it the best solution that we have to fight climate change as it stands ? Absolutely. And yes, they are building new coal plants to make up for their decisions. Datteln 4 just started up last year.
- lorenzhs 6y ago
  Your use of "green energy ayatollahs" tells me you're more interested in ranting than debate. Yet even in the current low-wind, low-sun scenario, 37% of German electricity is from renewable sources according to your link. Your conclusions don't match your own data.
  - gmueckl 6y ago
    Right now, the southern half of Germany has clear skies and thus a bright, sunny day approaching noon. These are optimal conditions for solar energy. This is why renewables get to approx. 40% of the energy mix right now. Let's have another look at those numbers around sunset (approx. 6 hours from now) and see where that goes.
    - lorenzhs 6y ago
      "Utilizing 28.36% of installed capacity" is what the linked map says about solar right now. I just rewound the slider to 8pm yesterday and it says "35% renewable".
      - gmueckl 6y ago
        I am not sure how much of these 28% are due to the distribution of solar panels in Germany and how much is due to seasonal effects. Solar irradiation varies a lot over the year. I vaguely remember that it goes down to about 300W/m^2 at noon in winter and peaks at around 1kW/m^2 at noon in summer, but I don't have time to verify that right now. The exact numbers vary by location, of course. But I can confirm that the sun is shining because it's shining directly on my roof and satellite images show a clear sky for anything south of Frankfurt.
  - ohgodplsno 6y ago
    >Yet even in the current low-wind, low-sun scenario, 37% of German electricity is from renewable sources according to your link. Your conclusions don't match your own data. France, which doesn't really invest heavily in renewables is at 30% right now. Spain is at 60%, and most of Europe is around 40%. It's not exactly hard. Sure, Germany doesn't have some sources (hydro is an amazing source of power), but let's not pretend that Germany is doing something amazing here. Additionally, looking only at renewable does not tell the whole story. Would you like to have 100% renewable through solar panels ? The rare earths required to build them, and the mining methods are absolutely horrendous for the environment. Not to mention changing them regularly, the sheer amount of space required for them, and potentially the batteries :since Germany doesn't exactly have lakes it can pump full of water to store energy, its options are good old chemical batteries, or Power to gas to power with its absolutely HORRENDOUS 15% efficiency. Our primary focus should not be renewable. We legitimately have enough resources to burn uranium for thousands of years. The sun will not stop shining on us, nor will the wind stop blowing, nor the water stop moving. We have time to develop these technologies further and make them truly a solution. As it stands, they are not. The current priority should be low carbon. Your attack, pretending I'm just looking for a rant is unjustified, but once again, I'm not surprised. Ideology does this. I'm looking for a better planet, for us to be able to electrify as much as possible so that we can be rid of fossil fuels. Germany isn't exactly helping with this.
corty 6y ago
Well, Germany until very recently, comissioned new lignite plants and is still actively mining lignite in areas that are still being expanded. There is some political turmoil about that, but at best, fossil fuels have plateaued. Also, for coal plants there are periods of "readiness" where the plants are nominally shut down already, but kept in readiness when power demand is high and renewables are nil, such as the cold period at the start of february this year. And we are comissioning gas power plants as a readiness reserve, those are kept in permanent readiness right after comissioning. Costs an arm and a leg, but energy storage investment doesn't exist in Germany aside from some very minor projects. Oh, and renewables are at a standstill as well, for the last few years there was very much stagnating growth in capacity. Since older renewable investments are reaching the end of their component lifetimes and subsidy periods, we will soon be at net negative growth in renewable capacity. I'm not sure where politics will proceed from here, depends on the election(s) this fall. Appetite for more renewables with ever-rising prices isn't as high as it used to be, at least in my subset of the population.
- Hammershaft 6y ago
  The idea that in a few years germany could be opening multiple lignite coal mines to replace falling renewable output makes me incredibly anxious about our chances of transitioning away from fossil fuels at all. I've argued it in other places in this thread, but I really think the only solution we have right now for clean baseline power is nuclear energy.
  - dispat0r 6y ago
    Fully agree but this will not happen and it's also too late building nuclear plants takes decades and the know how to construct them is also gone in Germany. We will try to shut off coal plants until we get a huge blackout then we go back to coal.

ohgodplsno 6y ago

This transition can _never_ be finished. There is no reality in which, in 2025, or 2030, or 2040, Germany is running 100% on renewables. Let's have a quick look at the german energy mix: https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE https://www.electricitymap.org/zone/DE As I write this: * Germany has 68GW of wind capacity. Only 3GW are currently producing, because there's no wind. * Solar is doing just as bad, with 9.11GW active out of 53GW * Even worse, in the last 24 hours, wind has basically been at 5% capacity the entire time. Solar picked up quite a bit, but the base production is guaranteed by coal plants. This gets immensely worse at night where this rises to over half of their energy output * Each kWh has cost the world the emission of 400g of CO2. * Even in the best possible conditions, their green mix still ejects 210g of carbon per kWh. The green energy ayatollahs, with their there-is-no-alternative policy are making things worse by refusing a temporary, controlled, safe source of energy. Is nuclear ideal ? No. Should it be a temporary (~100 years or so) source of energy while we transition to better options ? Yes. Is it the best solution that we have to fight climate change as it stands ? Absolutely. And yes, they are building new coal plants to make up for their decisions. Datteln 4 just started up last year.

lorenzhs 6y ago
Your use of "green energy ayatollahs" tells me you're more interested in ranting than debate. Yet even in the current low-wind, low-sun scenario, 37% of German electricity is from renewable sources according to your link. Your conclusions don't match your own data.
- gmueckl 6y ago
  Right now, the southern half of Germany has clear skies and thus a bright, sunny day approaching noon. These are optimal conditions for solar energy. This is why renewables get to approx. 40% of the energy mix right now. Let's have another look at those numbers around sunset (approx. 6 hours from now) and see where that goes.
  - lorenzhs 6y ago
    "Utilizing 28.36% of installed capacity" is what the linked map says about solar right now. I just rewound the slider to 8pm yesterday and it says "35% renewable".
    - gmueckl 6y ago
      I am not sure how much of these 28% are due to the distribution of solar panels in Germany and how much is due to seasonal effects. Solar irradiation varies a lot over the year. I vaguely remember that it goes down to about 300W/m^2 at noon in winter and peaks at around 1kW/m^2 at noon in summer, but I don't have time to verify that right now. The exact numbers vary by location, of course. But I can confirm that the sun is shining because it's shining directly on my roof and satellite images show a clear sky for anything south of Frankfurt.
- ohgodplsno 6y ago
  >Yet even in the current low-wind, low-sun scenario, 37% of German electricity is from renewable sources according to your link. Your conclusions don't match your own data. France, which doesn't really invest heavily in renewables is at 30% right now. Spain is at 60%, and most of Europe is around 40%. It's not exactly hard. Sure, Germany doesn't have some sources (hydro is an amazing source of power), but let's not pretend that Germany is doing something amazing here. Additionally, looking only at renewable does not tell the whole story. Would you like to have 100% renewable through solar panels ? The rare earths required to build them, and the mining methods are absolutely horrendous for the environment. Not to mention changing them regularly, the sheer amount of space required for them, and potentially the batteries :since Germany doesn't exactly have lakes it can pump full of water to store energy, its options are good old chemical batteries, or Power to gas to power with its absolutely HORRENDOUS 15% efficiency. Our primary focus should not be renewable. We legitimately have enough resources to burn uranium for thousands of years. The sun will not stop shining on us, nor will the wind stop blowing, nor the water stop moving. We have time to develop these technologies further and make them truly a solution. As it stands, they are not. The current priority should be low carbon. Your attack, pretending I'm just looking for a rant is unjustified, but once again, I'm not surprised. Ideology does this. I'm looking for a better planet, for us to be able to electrify as much as possible so that we can be rid of fossil fuels. Germany isn't exactly helping with this.

corty 6y ago

Well, Germany until very recently, comissioned new lignite plants and is still actively mining lignite in areas that are still being expanded. There is some political turmoil about that, but at best, fossil fuels have plateaued. Also, for coal plants there are periods of "readiness" where the plants are nominally shut down already, but kept in readiness when power demand is high and renewables are nil, such as the cold period at the start of february this year. And we are comissioning gas power plants as a readiness reserve, those are kept in permanent readiness right after comissioning. Costs an arm and a leg, but energy storage investment doesn't exist in Germany aside from some very minor projects. Oh, and renewables are at a standstill as well, for the last few years there was very much stagnating growth in capacity. Since older renewable investments are reaching the end of their component lifetimes and subsidy periods, we will soon be at net negative growth in renewable capacity. I'm not sure where politics will proceed from here, depends on the election(s) this fall. Appetite for more renewables with ever-rising prices isn't as high as it used to be, at least in my subset of the population.

Hammershaft 6y ago
The idea that in a few years germany could be opening multiple lignite coal mines to replace falling renewable output makes me incredibly anxious about our chances of transitioning away from fossil fuels at all. I've argued it in other places in this thread, but I really think the only solution we have right now for clean baseline power is nuclear energy.
- dispat0r 6y ago
  Fully agree but this will not happen and it's also too late building nuclear plants takes decades and the know how to construct them is also gone in Germany. We will try to shut off coal plants until we get a huge blackout then we go back to coal.