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The same should apply for the baseball game they are watching. The less able players should get 4 strikes, the better players maybe 2. Correct? I’m familiar

The same should apply for the baseball game they are watching. The less able players should get 4 strikes, the better players maybe 2. Correct? I’m familiar with the illustration you referred to. It’s sad how so few miss the fact that the kids are trying to watch a Competition! And, if the rules were as set forth above, the game wouldn’t be worth watching in the first place.

alach11 6y ago
We're talking about schools here, right? It's not a zero sum game like baseball.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  No, the issue is not zero sum but the trade off of equity versus equality of opportunity. * In your class are 30 kids, one of which screams and interrupts the the teacher. Do you kick the bad actor out so the other 29 kids can learn, or do you keep the bad actor in so that no one can learn? * In your class are 10 slow kids and 10 fast kids. Does the teacher go at a slow pace so that everyone learns the same amount or does the teacher go at a pace so that the fast kids learn the most and the slow kids are frustrated by things being over their heads? The problem is that we have too many blank slate utopians who believe it is the respnsibility of teachers to ensure that everyone leaves school with the same knowledge, and simply don't recognize that different students have different abilities and tempers and different suitability for learning. This fanatical belief, to which they cling despite all evidence, is absolutely devastating for our educational system and causes it to be grossly inefficient: * We do not have a trade school system in the US because we hate "tracking", or the idea that some kids should go into a more academically focused track and others should go into a less academic/more hands on track. Thus everyone goes to a school that is chartered as college prep which just means that there are no good college prep schools and there are no good vocational schools. It sucks at both tasks, but at least everyone gets to pretend that they have the same possibilities at college as everyone else. Thus we have a shortage of skilled craftsmen and vocational work, which then forces businesses to import these even as more of the native population slides into poverty while immigrants, who were spared the US secondary educational system, do well. * Given that there are wide and persistent academic differences between groups, yet the teachers have convinced themselves that differences can only be the result of lack of funding or racism, accelerated classes are being cancelled all across the country and testing regimes that show differences are being cancelled as well, which leads to more misallocation of resources as students are not routed to the education appropriate to them and then universities lack reliable information to make admissions decisions. Thus university education in the US is extremely inefficient as they must do remedial courses to catch up what students should have learned in high school. This inefficiency creates a shortage of high skilled workers, which again forces the businesses to import them as more of the native population slides into poverty while immigrants who attended more rational tertiary regimes do well. * the idea that "everyone can be X if they just try hard enough" leads to enormous self-loathing on the part of students who are being lied to and forced to participate in classes not suited to them, all so teachers and administrators can cling to these utopian delusions. At the same time the notion that "everyone can be X if they try hard enough" is a mockery to gifted students who are intentionally denied the chance to maximize their potential because educators don't approve of their race or would rather eliminate gifted programs entirely than have their illusions of equity shattered.
  - mleonhard 6y ago
    > The problem is that we have too many blank slate utopians who believe ... This sounds like a personal attack. Next time, talk about the merits of the idea, and leave the out judgement of the people who hold the idea. The phrasing is excessively aggressive. "We have too many X" sounds like you want to get rid of some X. People have a right to participate in society and influence the structure of society through democratic processes. If you think the problem is that too many people hold idea Y, then say that.
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      > This sounds like a personal attack. Categorization of people based on their beliefs around the topic at hand is not a "personal attack", much like how in a discussion about the merits of condiments, calling someone a "ketchup fan" ain't a personal attack. > If you think the problem is that too many people hold idea Y, then say that. That's precisely what the GP did. How you misconstrued it so badly is beyond me.
  - posguy 6y ago
    If your class has 30 kids, that is too many kids. Doesn't matter whether your in an advanced class or regular class, your spreading the teacher too thin and they likely can't do more than a light skim of student work, let alone in depth corrections of errors, open tutoring hours, etc https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research/featured/the-class-size-debate-what-the-evidence-means-for-education-policy https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research/featured/the-class-size-d...
  - fatnoah 6y ago
    >* We do not have a trade school system in the US... That may be a regional/state thing, then. My high school was adjacent to the vocational school for the region, where high school kids on a trade track would learn trades like carpentry, plumbing, electrical, culinary, etc. > the idea that "everyone can be X if they just try hard enough Agree on this as well, and the goal shouldn't be that everyone gets X on the state math test, it should be that every kid has the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential. That's really what it should be, but as you note, nowhere is setup for that and people abhor things that can't be directly measured.
foerbert 6y ago
I'm somewhat confused by what the point you are trying to make here. Are the kids here supposed to be competing on height? Or ability to obtain a taller footstool? The more I think about this the more absurd it seems. The situations are so entirely different that conflating them this way is just strange.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ptaipale 6y ago
To me it seems that most miss that the three different kids are watching a competition from back of a fence, without paying, while others paid for the game...

alach11 6y ago

We're talking about schools here, right? It's not a zero sum game like baseball.

rsj_hn 6y ago
No, the issue is not zero sum but the trade off of equity versus equality of opportunity. * In your class are 30 kids, one of which screams and interrupts the the teacher. Do you kick the bad actor out so the other 29 kids can learn, or do you keep the bad actor in so that no one can learn? * In your class are 10 slow kids and 10 fast kids. Does the teacher go at a slow pace so that everyone learns the same amount or does the teacher go at a pace so that the fast kids learn the most and the slow kids are frustrated by things being over their heads? The problem is that we have too many blank slate utopians who believe it is the respnsibility of teachers to ensure that everyone leaves school with the same knowledge, and simply don't recognize that different students have different abilities and tempers and different suitability for learning. This fanatical belief, to which they cling despite all evidence, is absolutely devastating for our educational system and causes it to be grossly inefficient: * We do not have a trade school system in the US because we hate "tracking", or the idea that some kids should go into a more academically focused track and others should go into a less academic/more hands on track. Thus everyone goes to a school that is chartered as college prep which just means that there are no good college prep schools and there are no good vocational schools. It sucks at both tasks, but at least everyone gets to pretend that they have the same possibilities at college as everyone else. Thus we have a shortage of skilled craftsmen and vocational work, which then forces businesses to import these even as more of the native population slides into poverty while immigrants, who were spared the US secondary educational system, do well. * Given that there are wide and persistent academic differences between groups, yet the teachers have convinced themselves that differences can only be the result of lack of funding or racism, accelerated classes are being cancelled all across the country and testing regimes that show differences are being cancelled as well, which leads to more misallocation of resources as students are not routed to the education appropriate to them and then universities lack reliable information to make admissions decisions. Thus university education in the US is extremely inefficient as they must do remedial courses to catch up what students should have learned in high school. This inefficiency creates a shortage of high skilled workers, which again forces the businesses to import them as more of the native population slides into poverty while immigrants who attended more rational tertiary regimes do well. * the idea that "everyone can be X if they just try hard enough" leads to enormous self-loathing on the part of students who are being lied to and forced to participate in classes not suited to them, all so teachers and administrators can cling to these utopian delusions. At the same time the notion that "everyone can be X if they try hard enough" is a mockery to gifted students who are intentionally denied the chance to maximize their potential because educators don't approve of their race or would rather eliminate gifted programs entirely than have their illusions of equity shattered.
- mleonhard 6y ago
  > The problem is that we have too many blank slate utopians who believe ... This sounds like a personal attack. Next time, talk about the merits of the idea, and leave the out judgement of the people who hold the idea. The phrasing is excessively aggressive. "We have too many X" sounds like you want to get rid of some X. People have a right to participate in society and influence the structure of society through democratic processes. If you think the problem is that too many people hold idea Y, then say that.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > This sounds like a personal attack. Categorization of people based on their beliefs around the topic at hand is not a "personal attack", much like how in a discussion about the merits of condiments, calling someone a "ketchup fan" ain't a personal attack. > If you think the problem is that too many people hold idea Y, then say that. That's precisely what the GP did. How you misconstrued it so badly is beyond me.
- posguy 6y ago
  If your class has 30 kids, that is too many kids. Doesn't matter whether your in an advanced class or regular class, your spreading the teacher too thin and they likely can't do more than a light skim of student work, let alone in depth corrections of errors, open tutoring hours, etc https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research/featured/the-class-size-debate-what-the-evidence-means-for-education-policy https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research/featured/the-class-size-d...
- fatnoah 6y ago
  >* We do not have a trade school system in the US... That may be a regional/state thing, then. My high school was adjacent to the vocational school for the region, where high school kids on a trade track would learn trades like carpentry, plumbing, electrical, culinary, etc. > the idea that "everyone can be X if they just try hard enough Agree on this as well, and the goal shouldn't be that everyone gets X on the state math test, it should be that every kid has the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential. That's really what it should be, but as you note, nowhere is setup for that and people abhor things that can't be directly measured.

foerbert 6y ago

I'm somewhat confused by what the point you are trying to make here. Are the kids here supposed to be competing on height? Or ability to obtain a taller footstool? The more I think about this the more absurd it seems. The situations are so entirely different that conflating them this way is just strange.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ptaipale 6y ago

To me it seems that most miss that the three different kids are watching a competition from back of a fence, without paying, while others paid for the game...