6 ms·

Exactly. Equal opportunities should exist. Equal outcomes won't likely exist, purely because of different abilities, different environments, etc. If you want

by hpcjoe 6y ago

Exactly. Equal opportunities should exist. Equal outcomes won't likely exist, purely because of different abilities, different environments, etc. If you want to improve the outcomes of the lower performers, you have to address the environmental factors. You do not take away the challenges for the high performers. That solves no problems, and creates more. Most importantly, you cannot, and should not, ever, let ideology dictate what is best for the kids. Doing so does a grave disservice to all kids. Some kids need far more challenge. Give it to them. Some kids need extra help. Give it to them.

undefined1 6y ago
> Equal opportunities should exist. Equal outcomes won't likely exist, purely because of different abilities, different environments, etc. Thomas Sowell puts an even finer point on this: "If there is not equality of outcomes among people born to the same parents and raised under the same roof, why should equality of outcomes be expected — or assumed — when conditions are not nearly so comparable?"
jgalt212 6y ago
If you don't have equal outcomes that is prima facie evidence of structural racism (or some other ism). It's like solving an integral and setting C at whatever value makes the equation work for your preferred solution value.
- legolas2412 6y ago
  First, there may be biological differences. Asians tend to be shorter, while africans tend to be stronger. Similarly men tend to be taller. Second, the ism may be classism. Poor students with less access to education might perform worse. Classifying classism as racism and solving it that may be wrong. Third, the ism may be cultural too. If asian parents drive their kids harder by their parenting technique, that's not racism either. It does not help to call all differences as only racism. The truth is differences are caused by a variety of reasons, of which racism is one.
  - jgalt212 6y ago
    you make some good points here. > It does not help to call all differences as only racism. The truth is differences are caused by a variety of reasons, of which racism is one. This is where the neo-liberals fall down. They like to blame, or over-blame, racism for all the world's ills as it has the convenient side effect of allowing them to sides-kirt any / most of the blame.
  - mcdramamean 6y ago
    I think the issue is where you draw the line between inputs and outputs. If you are judging being in the advanced class the outcome; then you are right to look at biological and social/cultural differences. But when you look at the wealth prospects of these kids beyond 5th and 6th grade, you see that an African-American with a college education has as much wealth as a "white" high school dropout. There has to be more going on here than just biologies and bell-curves. You also have to ask, statistically, who is educating the children? Mainly white women. Who does the worst in school? Black boys. The 2 groups with the least amount of things in common. Being able to effectively communicate with someone who doesn't come from your culture seems to be important when it comes to education, right? You click on the article and you are looking at a big picture of a white lady. I didn't have a single male teacher (besides for gym) until my sophomore year (I think AP Trigonometry?). At the very least, we need a 50/50 mix of male and female teachers. Trust me, though. I don't agree with them getting rid of gifted programs. I don't think you can deal with racism with feel good platitudes and policies. The issue is the wealth gap; that's it. If African-Americans had similar wealth prospects as other groups besides latinos, most of these issues would disappear. African Americans built the country and weren't paid for any of it. We are talking about a group who has been financially shackled for hundreds of years via federal laws; and now we are living in a hyper-capitalistic society. How can you "move out" the hood without money? Heck, can blacks from the hood even get jobs picking fruit on farms like "illegal" workers. Fighting racism against blacks is about a debt that is owed and has never been paid; not about reliving Jim Crow or throwing racists in jail or making white people feel bad about themselves. You can't legislate a man's heart (1st amendment and all).
    - legolas2412 6y ago

by hpcjoe 6y ago

undefined1 6y ago

> Equal opportunities should exist. Equal outcomes won't likely exist, purely because of different abilities, different environments, etc. Thomas Sowell puts an even finer point on this: "If there is not equality of outcomes among people born to the same parents and raised under the same roof, why should equality of outcomes be expected — or assumed — when conditions are not nearly so comparable?"

jgalt212 6y ago

If you don't have equal outcomes that is prima facie evidence of structural racism (or some other ism). It's like solving an integral and setting C at whatever value makes the equation work for your preferred solution value.

legolas2412 6y ago
First, there may be biological differences. Asians tend to be shorter, while africans tend to be stronger. Similarly men tend to be taller. Second, the ism may be classism. Poor students with less access to education might perform worse. Classifying classism as racism and solving it that may be wrong. Third, the ism may be cultural too. If asian parents drive their kids harder by their parenting technique, that's not racism either. It does not help to call all differences as only racism. The truth is differences are caused by a variety of reasons, of which racism is one.
- jgalt212 6y ago
  you make some good points here. > It does not help to call all differences as only racism. The truth is differences are caused by a variety of reasons, of which racism is one. This is where the neo-liberals fall down. They like to blame, or over-blame, racism for all the world's ills as it has the convenient side effect of allowing them to sides-kirt any / most of the blame.
- mcdramamean 6y ago
  I think the issue is where you draw the line between inputs and outputs. If you are judging being in the advanced class the outcome; then you are right to look at biological and social/cultural differences. But when you look at the wealth prospects of these kids beyond 5th and 6th grade, you see that an African-American with a college education has as much wealth as a "white" high school dropout. There has to be more going on here than just biologies and bell-curves. You also have to ask, statistically, who is educating the children? Mainly white women. Who does the worst in school? Black boys. The 2 groups with the least amount of things in common. Being able to effectively communicate with someone who doesn't come from your culture seems to be important when it comes to education, right? You click on the article and you are looking at a big picture of a white lady. I didn't have a single male teacher (besides for gym) until my sophomore year (I think AP Trigonometry?). At the very least, we need a 50/50 mix of male and female teachers. Trust me, though. I don't agree with them getting rid of gifted programs. I don't think you can deal with racism with feel good platitudes and policies. The issue is the wealth gap; that's it. If African-Americans had similar wealth prospects as other groups besides latinos, most of these issues would disappear. African Americans built the country and weren't paid for any of it. We are talking about a group who has been financially shackled for hundreds of years via federal laws; and now we are living in a hyper-capitalistic society. How can you "move out" the hood without money? Heck, can blacks from the hood even get jobs picking fruit on farms like "illegal" workers. Fighting racism against blacks is about a debt that is owed and has never been paid; not about reliving Jim Crow or throwing racists in jail or making white people feel bad about themselves. You can't legislate a man's heart (1st amendment and all).
  - legolas2412 6y ago